Nature, the god that determined our arrival.

Xris-

"Is that what you consider as luck? You are simply describing the opportunity of life. I could call you unlucky simply because you act in superior manner and do not appreciate that others have not the same but equally valuable asset. You are product of nature not a flip of a biological coin."

I have a deep reverence for all life. I regard life itself as the ground of all value. That which promotes life is Good; that which denigrates life is Evil. But these are my values, and the values of many like-minded people; They are not the edicts of some non-existent God, whether a Spirit or whether Mother Nature. 'Nature is hard' and heartless; all Natural History (Ecological, Biological) is the history of suffering and the struggle to live and reproduce; But there is no Evil in Nature, no Evil in a Grizzly which tears a man apart and eats him- Evil exists only in Humans, only in our species, because we have the ability to think and talk about Evil. I respect Life in the aggregate and all its individuals down to the single cell and the living replicator we call a virus; but I am for the eradication of a decimating virus of complex forms if we can manage it; and I am for eradicating Evil as it exists in mankind. Evil as I and others like me define it.

Danny Collins

Xris-

"Is that what you consider as luck? You are simply describing the opportunity of life. I could call you unlucky simply because you act in superior manner and do not appreciate that others have not the same but equally valuable asset. You are product of nature not a flip of a biological coin."

I have a deep reverence for all life. I regard life itself as the ground of all value. That which promotes life is Good; that which denigrates life is Evil. But these are my values, and the values of many like-minded people; They are not the edicts of some non-existent God, whether a Spirit or whether Mother Nature. 'Nature is hard' and heartless; all Natural History (Ecological, Biological) is the history of suffering and the struggle to live and reproduce; But there is no Evil in Nature, no Evil in a Grizzly which tears a man apart and eats him- Evil exists only in Humans, only in our species, because we have the ability to think and talk about Evil. I respect Life in the aggregate and all its individuals down to the single cell and the living replicator we call a virus; but I am for the eradication of a decimating virus of complex forms if we can manage it; and I am for eradicating Evil as it exists in mankind. Evil as I and others like me define it.

Danny Collins

Well bully for you but who invoked some non existent god? Not I friend. Nice bit of rhetoric but you proposed I had misrepresented the the nature of nature and now you are talking about the eradication of evil. Sorry but what is your objection to my premise?

Xris-

"Well bully for you but who invoked some non existent god? Not I friend. Nice bit of rhetoric but you proposed I had misrepresented the the nature of nature and now you are talking about the eradication of evil. Sorry but what is your objection to my premise?"

To be honest, Xris, I am not sure what your premise is- but I will tell you what I think it is- I think your premise is that Nature is itself purposeful and that its purpose is perfection. If I am wrong, my apologies, and I am ready to be corrected. But if that is indeed your premise, then I am baffled how you can hold it- By definition 'purpose' means intended goal, or conscious objective, or sentient desire, and this 'purpose' is impossible for a non-sentient activity, activity in Nature like biological evolution; chemical processes and physical processes apart from sentience, can never be purposeful, and thus this is the wrong term for concepts like evolution and natural selection. Also, 'perfection' can be defined in various ways but most people have a good grasp of the term- to say that Nature is moving to 'perfection' can only be meaningful if you are defining 'perfection' as something akin to the solution to an equation, and maybe in that sense you could use the term that way, but it would be rather a literary way to use language; and by the way, I personally love the use of the literary.

Danny Collins

Xris-

"Well bully for you but who invoked some non existent god? Not I friend. Nice bit of rhetoric but you proposed I had misrepresented the the nature of nature and now you are talking about the eradication of evil. Sorry but what is your objection to my premise?"

To be honest, Xris, I am not sure what your premise is- but I will tell you what I think it is- I think your premise is that Nature is itself purposeful and that its purpose is perfection. If I am wrong, my apologies, and I am ready to be corrected. But if that is indeed your premise, then I am baffled how you can hold it- By definition 'purpose' means intended goal, or conscious objective, or sentient desire, and this 'purpose' is impossible for a non-sentient activity, activity in Nature like biological evolution; chemical processes and physical processes apart from sentience, can never be purposeful, and thus this is the wrong term for concepts like evolution and natural selection. Also, 'perfection' can be defined in various ways but most people have a good grasp of the term- to say that Nature is moving to 'perfection' can only be meaningful if you are defining 'perfection' as something akin to the solution to an equation, and maybe in that sense you could use the term that way, but it would be rather a literary way to use language; and by the way, I personally love the use of the literary.

Danny Collins

I agree Danny, nature is a blind process with no purpose, which follows particular rules. It pure process, nothing more. Xris, is it me or have you developed a bit of a short fuse while I've been away?

Xris-

"Is that what you consider as luck? You are simply describing the opportunity of life. I could call you unlucky simply because you act in superior manner and do not appreciate that others have not the same but equally valuable asset. You are product of nature not a flip of a biological coin."

I have a deep reverence for all life. I regard life itself as the ground of all value. That which promotes life is Good; that which denigrates life is Evil. But these are my values, and the values of many like-minded people; They are not the edicts of some non-existent God, whether a Spirit or whether Mother Nature. 'Nature is hard' and heartless; all Natural History (Ecological, Biological) is the history of suffering and the struggle to live and reproduce; But there is no Evil in Nature, no Evil in a Grizzly which tears a man apart and eats him- Evil exists only in Humans, only in our species, because we have the ability to think and talk about Evil. I respect Life in the aggregate and all its individuals down to the single cell and the living replicator we call a virus; but I am for the eradication of a decimating virus of complex forms if we can manage it; and I am for eradicating Evil as it exists in mankind. Evil as I and others like me define it.

Danny Collins

...very well expressed! Or put another way there is no inherent Teleology expressed in nature. It consists only of process which blend and separate. It it doesn't work its functions are discarded causing a miserable end to most organisms. Even biologists have often referred to nature as a mean old witch. It's absolute and total indifference is almost impossible for us to comprehend. That's why we feel compelled, religiously or philosophically, to superimpose some "paradigm" of our own creation to ameliorate the realities we can't escape from. It's also the reason for the "value added" references called, God, art or assumed journeys toward perfection, in short, any high idealism we subscribe to as a destiny. If you exist in Void (so to speak), you have to fill it somehow. Animals, though they have always existed parallel to man have never developed into "Existential" beings and therefore do not require anything man has created as compensation for existence. They only feel nature's needs not the over reaching quests of an Űber conscious complex.

It's questionable if this "convoluted awareness" is not some kind of unique poison in itself since it invariably leads to excess in virtually all instances and we know there is NO compromise with nature regarding excess. It's neutralization process is usually its "final solution". Paradoxically - though most already realize this - intelligence is requisite to leverage stupidity into lethal terrain and to the extent the former cannot "overrule" it is the latter which will "host" us into the future.

We are not and never have been Nature's darlings. We have not been "chosen" for anything and no God has ever anointed us for this position; it was, is and remains a "takes your chances" event where intelligence may be more of a doom than a salvation. It remains to be seen if the torque of intelligence is greater than the speed of stupidity. When dealing with Critical Masses the ratio and direction of forces is...critical!

Nature , a mean old witch?

Spinoza, I would believe, help thou mine unbelief.

Xris,

I guess what I am trying to say is who can prove that nature acts on its own. What is the force that causes 'nature'
to be? Is everyone saying nature is the first cause? I think what humans see as first cause has a cause they cannot see.

Xris,

I guess what I am trying to say is who can prove that nature acts on its own. What is the force that causes 'nature'
to be? Is everyone saying nature is the first cause? I think what humans see as first cause has a cause they cannot see.

Hello misty and all who have replied. I apologize for my angry replies.
I never said that nature acts on it's own. I have no idea how or why nature acts in the way that it does. I simply make the observation that nature intends or constantly strives for perfect as perfect can be. Why I appear to get annoyed? I have to constantly restate, I am not describing a god that has a sentient appearance. This idea that we have to reject a creative force of nature simply because it may lead to an invisible god is a spurious argument. We observe the process but we have no idea what drives nature. When we see life all around us and we see natures determination can we simply accept it as extension of some kind of chemical activity? When we do not even understand what life actually is or even have the ability to describe it, can we deny it has purpose? Why is it humanity believe the only conscious ability is theirs? When an ant can not comprehend ours and we the can not understand the ant colonies group conscious ability is there reason we should presume nature has no ability simply because we are not privy to it?