Exactly what is FREE WILL?

What exactly is Free Will??

I have never understood the idea that 'individuals' truly have free will. We are born without our permission, carried by the current of life of which most is out of my control, die without my permission at a time I do not get to choose. I sometimes choose things in my life but they are all choices governed by other limitations and circumstances also not my choice. So free will in my opinion is a myth fostered by whatever controls humans, and includes humans controlling other humans.

What say you?

My understanding of "free will" is based upon my understanding of how I've been put together. I see myself as a tripartite entity consisting of spirit, mind and body. A computer is a bipartite entity consisting of a mind (CPU) and a body (the entire collection of all physical components including CPU). The computer has no power to determine its own course, it just does what it is told to do. This appears to be how you see yourself, "I sometimes choose things in my life but they are all choices governed by other limitations and circumstances also not my choice."

The third aspect of my being, my spirit, elevates me above the level of a computer. I have the capacity to determine whether or not I approve of my programming and I can choose the software that determines the sort of activity I will pursue, which is how I express my free will.

Cheers, enegue.

What exactly is Free Will?? Dictionary - free will - the power of independent action and choice. I have never understood the idea that 'individuals' truly have free will. We are born without our permission, carried by the current of life of which most is out of my control, die without my permission at a time I do not get to choose. I sometimes choose things in my life but they are all choices governed by other limitations and circumstances also not my choice. So free will in my opinion is a myth fostered by whatever controls humans, and includes humans controlling other humans.

I feel quite certain that I have some free will, although not complete control as evidenced by your examples above. I can move my arm here or move it there. Unfortunately, if I look at a caterpillar, it also seems to move its head here or there and it appears to be exercising its will. So I suspect that in fact we do not have free will, but that the chain of command is so long through millions of neurones we will never be able to follow it through to prove it was not free will.

The movement of your arm here or there and any other achievement mankind thinks is his own -- isn't it preprogrammed? Mankind even poops when told to - as it is programmed into his system. Perhaps inventing the computer has given us access to our true nature?

-- Updated Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:39 am to add the following --

What exactly is Free Will??

I have never understood the idea that 'individuals' truly have free will. We are born without our permission, carried by the current of life of which most is out of my control, die without my permission at a time I do not get to choose. I sometimes choose things in my life but they are all choices governed by other limitations and circumstances also not my choice. So free will in my opinion is a myth fostered by whatever controls humans, and includes humans controlling other humans.

What say you?

My understanding of "free will" is based upon my understanding of how I've been put together. I see myself as a tripartite entity consisting of spirit, mind and body. A computer is a bipartite entity consisting of a mind (CPU) and a body (the entire collection of all physical components including CPU). The computer has no power to determine its own course, it just does what it is told to do. This appears to be how you see yourself, "I sometimes choose things in my life but they are all choices governed by other limitations and circumstances also not my choice."

The third aspect of my being, my spirit, elevates me above the level of a computer. I have the capacity to determine whether or not I approve of my programming and I can choose the software that determines the sort of activity I will pursue, which is how I express my free will.

Cheers, enegue.

True free will would be free - unlimited - self disciplined - without fault - or would personal free will get in the way of fellow humans? True free will would give humans the power to correct all wrongs in our world, instead we are trying to blow ourselves up!

The movement of your arm here or there and any other achievement mankind thinks is his own -- isn't it preprogrammed? Mankind even poops when told to - as it is programmed into his system. Perhaps inventing the computer has given us access to our true nature? True free will would be free - unlimited - self disciplined - without fault - or would personal free will get in the way of fellow humans? True free will would give humans the power to correct all wrongs in our world, instead we are trying to blow ourselves up!

Your concept of free will seems different to mine. Yours seems tied to the concept of a free human. My concept is that moving my hand when I want to constitutes free will. Or having a say when to poop. If we suppose the universe is a giant clock-like mechanism which is ticking over with humanly incomprehensible complexity, then the challenge is to explain how the feeling of free will is created in the conscious human brain. Lets say a beam of light strikes a human eye. A consequent message is fed into the human brain. The message is bounced around a morass of neurones, ending in a created message going to a finger muscle to contract and move a finger. There was a knot of neurones involved which believed it chose to make the response, and it can prove to itself that it did choose the response, by moving a different finger the next time the light strikes. Creation of the illusion of free will is beyond my current understanding.

True free will would be free - unlimited - self disciplined - without fault - or would personal free will get in the way of fellow humans? True free will would give humans the power to correct all wrongs in our world, instead we are trying to blow ourselves up!

Free will allows you to choose whether or not you are content with your genetic programming. Are you happy with your genetic programming? If you are, then there will be no reason for you to change it. If you aren't, you will not rest until you have exhausted all means to do so.

Assuming you are a person who doesn't believe in the existence of the spiritual aspect of your being, put a dot on a piece of paper and label it, "me". Put other dots at points some distance from "me" and label them according to the things you personally strive for. Ask yourself, "Why do I want to take hold of these things?" Your genetic wiring is responsible for the answer to that question. In the absence of an external influence, you have no power to act outside that wiring, you are held in a state of captivity, as you have already indicated about yourself.

In physics, the term "inertia" refers to a body's resistance to movement - a body will remain at rest or continue on a linear path unless it is acted upon by an external force. People are as subject to this law as are all other bodies in the universe. However, people differ from other bodies in regard to their capacity for free will. Free will is a person's capacity to take a step of "faith", a step that takes them from their state of inertia towards a dot that doesn't yet exist on their piece of paper. They can't put it there because they don't know it exists, hence the need for an external influence, a third party.

The alternative dots, the ones a person never knew previously existed as possible goals to strive for, are not put on the piece of paper by the third party, they are put there by the person themselves as something they now consider worthy of pursuit. The third party merely presents the alternative possibilities, a person's free will compels them to conclude, "I WANT TO" or "I don't WANT TO" pursue them, regardless of the evidence. "Evidence", they come to realise, is subject to their genetic wiring anyway and constrains them to only ever see what they WANT TO see.

Cheers, enegue.

True free will would be free - unlimited - self disciplined - without fault - or would personal free will get in the way of fellow humans? True free will would give humans the power to correct all wrongs in our world, instead we are trying to blow ourselves up!

Free will allows you to choose whether or not you are content with your genetic programming. Are you happy with your genetic programming? If you are, then there will be no reason for you to change it. If you aren't, you will not rest until you have exhausted all means to do so.

Assuming you are a person who doesn't believe in the existence of the spiritual aspect of your being, put a dot on a piece of paper and label it, "me". Put other dots at points some distance from "me" and label them according to the things you personally strive for. Ask yourself, "Why do I want to take hold of these things?" Your genetic wiring is responsible for the answer to that question. In the absence of an external influence, you have no power to act outside that wiring, you are held in a state of captivity, as you have already indicated about yourself.

In physics, the term "inertia" refers to a body's resistance to movement - a body will remain at rest or continue on a linear path unless it is acted upon by an external force. People are as subject to this law as are all other bodies in the universe. However, people differ from other bodies in regard to their capacity for free will. Free will is a person's capacity to take a step of "faith", a step that takes them from their state of inertia towards a dot that doesn't yet exist on their piece of paper. They can't put it there because they don't know it exists, hence the need for an external influence, a third party.

The alternative dots, the ones a person never knew previously existed as possible goals to strive for, are not put on the piece of paper by the third party, they are put there by the person themselves as something they now consider worthy of pursuit. The third party merely presents the alternative possibilities, a person's free will compels them to conclude, "I WANT TO" or "I don't WANT TO" pursue them, regardless of the evidence. "Evidence", they come to realise, is subject to their genetic wiring anyway and constrains them to only ever see what they WANT TO see.

Cheers, enegue.

Hi Enegue,

I was lucky enough to visit Australia many years ago - Canberra, Sydney,Perth (most of our stay 6 months) Brisbane, saw outback from Perth, Melbourne, had a wonderful time - very beautiful country - nice people - A couple years ago went to your neighbors Guam and Palau - 3 months - good trip - different but would not want to live there - I will address your post later - Misty

Hi, Misty.

I live in the city of Newcastle on the NSW coast, 150 km north of Sydney. I look forward to reading your comments.

Cheers, enegue

The movement of your arm here or there and any other achievement mankind thinks is his own -- isn't it preprogrammed? Mankind even poops when told to - as it is programmed into his system. Perhaps inventing the computer has given us access to our true nature? True free will would be free - unlimited - self disciplined - without fault - or would personal free will get in the way of fellow humans? True free will would give humans the power to correct all wrongs in our world, instead we are trying to blow ourselves up!

Your concept of free will seems different to mine. Yours seems tied to the concept of a free human. My concept is that moving my hand when I want to constitutes free will. Or having a say when to poop. If we suppose the universe is a giant clock-like mechanism which is ticking over with humanly incomprehensible complexity, then the challenge is to explain how the feeling of free will is created in the conscious human brain. Lets say a beam of light strikes a human eye. A consequent message is fed into the human brain. The message is bounced around a morass of neurones, ending in a created message going to a finger muscle to contract and move a finger. There was a knot of neurones involved which believed it chose to make the response, and it can prove to itself that it did choose the response, by moving a different finger the next time the light strikes. Creation of the illusion of free will is beyond my current understanding.

I am trying to but I do not see a difference in a 'free human' and free will of a human? I could not ascertain the difference as you describe in your post. Could you give another example?

I am trying to but I do not see a difference in a 'free human' and free will of a human? I could not ascertain the difference as you describe in your post. Could you give another example?

To me your view is at a macro-level, that is, you are discussing whether we have long-term control of our lives and whether our desires/hopes/fears are genetically programmed. Enegue seems to share your view of free will. You say that we do not have free will in that we have to poop. I say we have free will because most of us can normally determine when to poop within limitations. Another example, a human in chains you might regard as a person unable to exercise free will, whereas to me the chainee demonstrates free will merely by blinking an eye when desired. It does seem much easier to deny the existence of free will when considering the long term view.

Hi all


All I can see humans as having is what I would call choice. Free will is an illusion we have invented to make ourselves seem more important then we are. We like to feel we are in control, but at the best we make choices which are restrained by a determined world. Even the bible says that unless God works it in you, you will not be saved, nor will you come to a true belief. Rom.8:28-30. This last bit was for the Christians among us. As an example of freewill and choice, I was mowing my large lawn and I had used the last of the fuel. Now I could have used water to fill the tank and willed it work, but you know very well what would have happened. So the two choices I had was, giving up on lawn mowing or going out to get some more fuel. My height is 5ft 10inch and I have always wanted to be 6ft tall, but it has never happened.

Regards, John

Hi, Misty.

What do you want to do that you are not free to do?

Cheers, enegue

How can any human have free will - all humans are born into and reared in an environment and born to parents they did not choose and that would be different if said person was born into an environment and to parents in another part of the world. Their speech, accents, way of life, way they move, and looks etc. would be different so they had no control what will has been foisted upon them. Free will at best is controlled will and not self willed free will.

Free will is EXACTLY a myth generated by the church and state to justify the punishment of sins. Despite an all powerful, all knowing, all present god having to know absolutely everything you do, have done and will do from the moment he created you, the fallacy of freewill has been created to absolve god of his responsibility in his creation of you, and to place all the blame for your actions in your lap. This has enabled the governing powers to blame you for the actions you take.

Misty,

If you are not just blowing hot air, please answer my question!

What do you want to do that you are not free to do?

Cheers, enegue

Hi all


All I can see humans as having is what I would call choice. Free will is an illusion we have invented to make ourselves seem more important then we are. We like to feel we are in control, but at the best we make choices which are restrained by a determined world. Even the bible says that unless God works it in you, you will not be saved, nor will you come to a true belief. Rom.8:28-30. This last bit was for the Christians among us. As an example of freewill and choice, I was mowing my large lawn and I had used the last of the fuel. Now I could have used water to fill the tank and willed it work, but you know very well what would have happened. So the two choices I had was, giving up on lawn mowing or going out to get some more fuel. My height is 5ft 10inch and I have always wanted to be 6ft tall, but it has never happened.

Regards, John

Clogs the concept of true freedom to choose without preconceptions is not logical. If you try to exert your ability to choose you must have guidelines or experience. To be free, without restraints, means you have not lived or learnt. We must accept any freedom within the human condition. With that condition we have the human concept of free will. It is not perfect but perfection is misnomer.

Hi all


All I can see humans as having is what I would call choice. Free will is an illusion we have invented to make ourselves seem more important then we are. We like to feel we are in control, but at the best we make choices which are restrained by a determined world. Even the bible says that unless God works it in you, you will not be saved, nor will you come to a true belief. Rom.8:28-30. This last bit was for the Christians among us. As an example of freewill and choice, I was mowing my large lawn and I had used the last of the fuel. Now I could have used water to fill the tank and willed it work, but you know very well what would have happened. So the two choices I had was, giving up on lawn mowing or going out to get some more fuel. My height is 5ft 10inch and I have always wanted to be 6ft tall, but it has never happened.

Regards, John

I bet if you asked kitty to move over and borrow her mirror, you would be 6ft. tall!

-- Updated Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:08 pm to add the following --

Misty,

If you are not just blowing hot air, please answer my question!

What do you want to do that you are not free to do?

Cheers, enegue

Hi, Misty.

What do you want to do that you are not free to do?

Cheers, enegue

Whoa!

To be honest enegue, I did not see your post with a question to me as I had my thoughts on my own post.

Sorry. I think I would like to know what exactly happened to my first child said to have died. I would like to be rich and feed all the hungry. I would like enough arms to hug all who need it. I would like all the answers to all of my questions. I would like to feel good all the time. I would like perfect love in my personal life and in this world. I would like to meet Jesus (and Elvis) Get the idea?

Yes, if were in prison I could think about breaking out, but if I had free will in the first place I would not be in prison.

Cheers to you as well - Misty

-- Updated Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:25 pm to add the following --

I am trying to but I do not see a difference in a 'free human' and free will of a human? I could not ascertain the difference as you describe in your post. Could you give another example?

To me your view is at a macro-level, that is, you are discussing whether we have long-term control of our lives and whether our desires/hopes/fears are genetically programmed. Enegue seems to share your view of free will. You say that we do not have free will in that we have to poop. I say we have free will because most of us can normally determine when to poop within limitations. Another example, a human in chains you might regard as a person unable to exercise free will, whereas to me the chainee demonstrates free will merely by blinking an eye when desired. It does seem much easier to deny the existence of free will when considering the long term view.

Hello James195101,

No, I did not say we do not have free will because we poop, but that it is programmed into our systems, so we poop when our systems determines and alerts us. We did not create ourselves so everything about us is controlled - even our choices because we only choose within the life we were given, and a life that ends. I would not choose to be programmed to die- would you? True free will would be unrestricted not confined and limited.