Why Atheism Cannot Be Logically Supported

BaruchSpinoza wrote:

Divine here refers to peoples sense of the divine, which is a sense of infinite love and being. A certain mystical sense of a potentiality to connect with something beyond finite reality, which potentiality can actualize a more profound part of our nature when compared to all other things which can actualize our being. A being which our ever seeking Will finds restitude in beyond any other object. Not restitude in the sense of an idea, like when we might want to trick ourselves that "everything is alright," in some particular situation, but something which our whole being connects with. What we know about it comes from our experience of it, and this is how many people experience it. We see this is Bu

I understand that you ascribe this phenomena to an evolutionary "mind screw," because we "seek to explain origins," and "fear death," which is possible. Yet the way in which we experience this sense and the impact which it has the potential to have on our beings points more toward aspects of a super fulfilling relationship, beyond head knowledge and a fear, such as is posited in your theory. It touches a part of our being which allows our internal capacity to extend outward and higher than anything which touches us can.

I am not sure what exactly the proof of your assertion regarding this phenomena we experience is? It seems to be based on ideas which seek a more exact explanation of this phenomena... I am curious...

I would not deny that there is a range of humans experience that is known, amongst other things, as divine. But humans tendency to mumbo jumbo and the wish for some force beyond this world is so great that such experience is wrongly ascribed. Trance behaviour, for example, is common to many human societies, but there is no agreement as to what it is. Such altered states can be induced easily enough, and the gullible can be seen to succumb to malicious or light hearted foolery on any stage offering hypnotism or mesmerism; or even just meditation at home.

Studying such stuff on a wider anthropological perspective can be instructive to help unpack what is seen as 'touching the infinite', 'communing with ancestors', 'talking to your totem animal', and a range of other uninformed beliefs. Such experiences can also be induced with sensory deprivation, or short-cut with a range of drugs. The trouble with the mystical interpretations is without exception wrong, they do not lead to any knowledge 'beyond head knowledge', whatever that quaint phrase is supposed to mean. In fact thousands of years of such practices has not achieved anything more that a nice head-re-set; a nice rest in the case of meditation; maybe the chance to quit smoking, which I doubt; a bit of healing based on the excellent placebo of community engagement (I think her specifically of the !Kung San healing trance), but sadly no pragmatic knowledge, far sight, telepathy, or any agreement about the nature of god, or the divine.

I'd seriously advise a wider anthropological perspective which demonstrates the same sort of behaviours from San bushmen; Amazonian drug taking Yanomano; Whirling Dervishes; and certain sects of happy-clappy Christians in the USA, all of whom claim they have achieved completely different things; they cannot all be right, and it is likely that the explanation of these states have a far more interesting and psycho-cerebral explanation.

-- Updated July 25th, 2012, 7:19 pm to add the following --

Okay I see. Purpose and reason are different.

And there can be multiple types of purpose. I usually divide them in to two categories, mental and physical.

What's the physical purpose of being in the physical World, is that we are just another model of absorption and transference of energies (just like the sun, just like plants, just like the collision of two bodies in space). I would say one mental purpose of being in the physical World, is for me to be tested. Everything in between are just characteristic of those two purposes.

Can you stop yourself fulfilling those purposes? No.

I think you missed my point. As an agent of change determined by ones experience and dependant on the world, ones choices are limited by ones potentialities. But there is no purpose to life, except that which you choose. You may choose within the range of the possible, but you are not here to fulfil any pre-ordained purpose. I think the idea of purpose that is more that personal intention is a false concept.

....But there is no purpose to life..

Yes life itself has no purpose, but we must have purpose, otherwise we go cuckoo.

Bermudj how true! How may we distinguish our good purpose from our bad purpose? Because we all are capable of bad purposes. Should we get our purposes from others or from our emotions, or from our reason and natural human kindness?

Those persons who hold that purpose is built into nature really must, if they think about it, which I guess few of them do, must think also that if nature is purposeful then nature is something like humans or certain other mammals . That is to say people who believe that nature purposes are presuming that nature is a person or at least a higher mammal such as an Alsatian dog,an elephant, or a whale.

Yes life itself has no purpose, but we must have purpose, otherwise we go cuckoo.

Exactly what I have ben saying. So what's yours?

-- Updated July 26th, 2012, 6:07 am to add the following --

Bermudj how true! How may we distinguish our good purpose from our bad purpose? Because we all are capable of bad purposes. Should we get our purposes from others or from our emotions, or from our reason and natural human kindness?

Those persons who hold that purpose is built into nature really must, if they think about it, which I guess few of them do, must think also that if nature is purposeful then nature is something like humans or certain other mammals . That is to say people who believe that nature purposes are presuming that nature is a person or at least a higher mammal such as an Alsatian dog,an elephant, or a whale.

Other people have 'bad purposes', we as individuals never do. As Socrates suggests we never willingly do ourselves harm. Our aims in life might be destructive to ourselves, or make us grow, but they are 'ours'. Even suicide is a aim that satifies our need.

Yes life itself has no purpose, but we must have purpose, otherwise we go cuckoo.

Exactly what I have ben saying. So what's yours?

Long term to have full control of my life, shorter term to remove my GAD and lose weight (I am on 106kg and I should be 70kg) . Being a God believer I will kneel and pray to God that my weight magically dissapears.

Seriously though, I address these two latter issues by go swimming every day, do 40 lengths of 25 metres, as well as eat at healthy food at home, avoid all the junk food on the streets, and for the GAD I exposed myself to those situations that my body feared and secure the body there, basically remove the fear. And that is call courage.

I have given up on psychologists and psychiatrists they have already taken enough of the little money I have.

Other people have 'bad purposes', we as individuals never do. As Socrates suggests we never willingly do ourselves harm. Our aims in life might be destructive to ourselves, or make us grow, but they are 'ours'. Even suicide is a aim that satifies our need.

I disagree with Socrates on this. I believe the body attempts to destroy itself, but the mind, the awareness, I am not sure how you wish to call it, puts a stop to this.

-- Updated July 25th, 2012, 7:19 pm to add the following --

Okay I see. Purpose and reason are different.

And there can be multiple types of purpose. I usually divide them in to two categories, mental and physical.

What's the physical purpose of being in the physical World, is that we are just another model of absorption and transference of energies (just like the sun, just like plants, just like the collision of two bodies in space). I would say one mental purpose of being in the physical World, is for me to be tested. Everything in between are just characteristic of those two purposes.

Can you stop yourself fulfilling those purposes? No.

I think you missed my point. As an agent of change determined by ones experience and dependant on the world, ones choices are limited by ones potentialities. But there is no purpose to life, except that which you choose. You may choose within the range of the possible, but you are not here to fulfil any pre-ordained purpose. I think the idea of purpose that is more that personal intention is a false concept.[/quote]

Your wrong spinoza, Just because you individually don't like the purpose of your linage and history of your body is just another way to transfer energy in the universe. Doesn't mean its not a purpose, Just like the purpose of having teeth is for what? to chew. But no I am Spinoza and I don't like to chew therefore its not a reason for my teeth to be there??

Can you stop yourself in fulfilling those purposes of transfer energy and not to be test?

Long term to have full control of my life, shorter term to remove my GAD and lose weight (I am on 106kg and I should be 70kg) . Being a God believer I will kneel and pray to God that my weight magically dissapears.

Seriously though, I address these two latter issues by go swimming every day, do 40 lengths of 25 metres, as well as eat at healthy food at home, avoid all the junk food on the streets, and for the GAD I exposed myself to those situations that my body feared and secure the body there, basically remove the fear. And that is call courage.

I have given up on psychologists and psychiatrists they have already taken enough of the little money I have.


I disagree with Socrates on this. I believe the body attempts to destroy itself, but the mind, the awareness, I am not sure how you wish to call it, puts a stop to this.

In what way do you think the body tries to destroy itself, except by the usual method of ageing? We can only mitigate against it, we never get total control. I'm loosing weight at the moment. I've lost 22lbs in the last 8 weeks. Work out a meal regime where it is easy to count calories, and STICK TO IT. Allow yourself 1500 calories, buy a decent set of scales and plot your weight on a graph on the wall, where you can't help but see it everyday. If 1500 is too few, go to 1800, and see if you can loose on that.

-- Updated July 26th, 2012, 1:01 pm to add the following --

Your wrong spinoza, Just because you individually don't like the purpose of your linage and history of your body is just another way to transfer energy in the universe. Doesn't mean its not a purpose, Just like the purpose of having teeth is for what? to chew. But no I am Spinoza and I don't like to chew therefore its not a reason for my teeth to be there??

Can you stop yourself in fulfilling those purposes of transfer energy and not to be test?

Do you mean "You're wrong"? No I'm not wrong. I am obviously right. Teeth have a use not a purpose. They help us in our selctive advantage, but as all evolved traits precede the selection , they are not initiated to specific purposes, but together result in functionality. There is a complicated technical reason why I am right and you are not, based on the theory of evolution, which I'm not sure you can appreciate given your beliefs. The sentence in RED above sounds like an attempt to be sarcastic - you realise this is a forum moderated for personal attacks? I think it is a failed attempt. I'm happy to deal with what is on your mind here but can't quite make it out.

In what way do you think the body tries to destroy itself, except by the usual method of ageing? We can only mitigate against it, we never get total control. I'm loosing weight at the moment. I've lost 22lbs in the last 8 weeks. Work out a meal regime where it is easy to count calories, and STICK TO IT. Allow yourself 1500 calories, buy a decent set of scales and plot your weight on a graph on the wall, where you can't help but see it everyday. If 1500 is too few, go to 1800, and see if you can loose on that.

Well 22lb in 2 months that is a very impressive loss rate.

I have lost weight in the past and then it has come back up again. This where I have my fight with my own body in that once it worries it goes for food, particularly junk food to sort out the worry. Gradually I have been retraining it so that when it worries I make it go and face the worry, or handle the worry, food just compounds the problem. Of course it is only thoughts but I extrapolate this to what what gives rise to drinking, drugs and the like. It is in this way that the body attempts to destroy itself and overcome the nightmare of life. Life can be very nightmarish.

Thanks for the advice on how to keep on a diet track.

Bermudj, I agree humans think we need a purpose to human life. We need to look at different angles here though. Yes, we can make up our own purpose to life. But that doesn't mean that there is a "reason" for our existence.

Well 22lb in 2 months that is a very impressive loss rate.

I have lost weight in the past and then it has come back up again. This where I have my fight with my own body in that once it worries it goes for food, particularly junk food to sort out the worry. Gradually I have been retraining it so that when it worries I make it go and face the worry, or handle the worry, food just compounds the problem. Of course it is only thoughts but I extrapolate this to what what gives rise to drinking, drugs and the like. It is in this way that the body attempts to destroy itself and overcome the nightmare of life. Life can be very nightmarish.

Thanks for the advice on how to keep on a diet track.

The secret, if there is one, is being honest with yourself, and just coming to a decision that you want to be smaller. When I had cancer I lost 33lbs the hard way, vomiting from chemo , losing my taste buds through radiotherapy, coughing up blood. It was all I could do to get down a milk-shake in a day. After it was over and a couple of months when my taste came back I put back all the weight and more so happy was I that I could enjoy food again, But its getting on top of me again so I needed to do something about it. Do you live alone? This can be a burden or a boon. I'm, lucky my partner supports me, and does not offer me food, and always says I am looking slimmer. I've had partners who like their food and watching them eat whilst you have a carrot is pretty bad.

-- Updated July 26th, 2012, 1:54 pm to add the following --

Bermudj, I agree humans think we need a purpose to human life. We need to look at different angles here though. Yes, we can make up our own purpose to life. But that doesn't mean that there is a "reason" for our existence.

Or does not mean there is. What do you mean "reason?"

BaruchSpinoza wrote:

I would not deny that there is a range of humans experience that is known, amongst other things, as divine. But humans tendency to mumbo jumbo and the wish for some force beyond this world is so great that such experience is wrongly ascribed. Trance behaviour, for example, is common to many human societies, but there is no agreement as to what it is. Such altered states can be induced easily enough, and the gullible can be seen to succumb to malicious or light hearted foolery on any stage offering hypnotism or mesmerism; or even just meditation at home.

Studying such stuff on a wider anthropological perspective can be instructive to help unpack what is seen as 'touching the infinite', 'communing with ancestors', 'talking to your totem animal', and a range of other uninformed beliefs. Such experiences can also be induced with sensory deprivation, or short-cut with a range of drugs. The trouble with the mystical interpretations is without exception wrong, they do not lead to any knowledge 'beyond head knowledge', whatever that quaint phrase is supposed to mean. In fact thousands of years of such practices has not achieved anything more that a nice head-re-set; a nice rest in the case of meditation; maybe the chance to quit smoking, which I doubt; a bit of healing based on the excellent placebo of community engagement (I think her specifically of the !Kung San healing trance), but sadly no pragmatic knowledge, far sight, telepathy, or any agreement about the nature of god, or the divine.

I'd seriously advise a wider anthropological perspective which demonstrates the same sort of behaviours from San bushmen; Amazonian drug taking Yanomano; Whirling Dervishes; and certain sects of happy-clappy Christians in the USA, all of whom claim they have achieved completely different things; they cannot all be right, and it is likely that the explanation of these states have a far more interesting and psycho-cerebral explanation.

We are not primarily talking about an alter or trance state, though these may be an aspect to it, but an internal capacity to be fulfilled or actualized. This capacity is not merely an idea, but something which our whole being has the potentiality to, just like we have the potentiality to feel, sense, love, and think. It does not have the characteristics of a thought, but of an actual capacity of our nature. It can't simply be treated as a "wrong thought." We can't just "not use," our capacity to think or feel. the capacity for the "sense of the divine," is experienced the same way. To not actualize this capacity is to leave a part of our being un-actualized. We do not have to "think the divine idea, and then ascend to it," we have the capacity to simply ascend to it or extend out to it. Much along the lines of our capacity to extend out in loving things. We also have the capacity to have what has the characteristics of a relationship with the object, in our "sense of the divine." It has little to do with altered states, such as hypnotism, Amazonian drug taking Yanomano, Whirling Dervishes, or acid trips, but a state we can simply ascend to, just like being in the "state of thinking," or the "state of being sensual." These all have aspects of temporary highs, not continually growing love relationships. If drugs could produce this state of contentedness, serenity, and a fulfilling loving relationship, then we would all be doing them.

As far as being pragmatic: All practical things are directed toward things or means which help us achieve greater actualization. The "sense of the divine," is a significant capacity or potentiality of our nature reaching greater actualization. Thus practicality itself seems to exist for the sake of the this. You seem to have limited "practicality," to only regard what is empirically observable and is related to our physical survival(actualization). However this is not apriori to its definition. I understand and respect that you believe this "sense of the divine," is somehow not a capacity of our nature, yet this is overwhelmingly how people experience it.

As far as agreement about the nature of God: God or the sense of the divine, as defined by most usually has the aspect of an infinite or universal being. This is the common aspect which is pertinent here. Particular theologies will naturally differ given that we reason to conclusions from parts to the whole, and that we have a sense nature

The "head knowledge," referred to the object sought in "seeking to explain things." Meaning how people relate to this "sense of the divine," is primarily in seeking a love relationship, interior contentedness, and serenity, not simply "an intellectual explanation(head knowledge)." Its not as if people think of this intellectual explanation and then are satisfied. They seek relationship and achieve it with this object, whether you think this object exists or not. You are seeking to explain a non-empirical phenomena(sense of the divine) with a completely base physical phenomena(survival). This is not by any means an apriori premise. It seems like one you put on it, because of your desire to be able to explain everything within a realm which can fully be reduced to our senses experience. It is possible that you are trying to fit ALL phenomena within the predefined limits of whatever discipline you are studying.

The fact is that some of these state you speak of can be induced naturally, and often are. A high level of concentration, meditating on a particular object, jumping off a cliff, drugs acting on our physical structure. The fact that these experiences are different does point to possible different sources.

We are not primarily talking about an alter or trance state, though these may be an aspect to it, but an internal capacity to be fulfilled or actualized. This capacity is not merely an idea, but something which our whole being has the potentiality to, just like we have the potentiality to feel, sense, love, and think. It does not have the characteristics of a thought, but of an actual capacity of our nature. It can't simply be treated as a "wrong thought." We can't just "not use," our capacity to think or feel. the capacity for the "sense of the divine," is experienced the same way. To not actualize this capacity is to leave a part of our being un-actualized. We do not have to "think the divine idea, and then ascend to it," we have the capacity to simply ascend to it or extend out to it. Much along the lines of our capacity to extend out in loving things. We also have the capacity to have what has the characteristics of a relationship with the object, in our "sense of the divine." It has little to do with altered states, such as hypnotism, Amazonian drug taking Yanomano, Whirling Dervishes, or acid trips, but a state we can simply ascend to, just like being in the "state of thinking," or the "state of being sensual." These all have aspects of temporary highs, not continually growing love relationships. If drugs could produce this state of contentedness, serenity, and a fulfilling loving relationship, then we would all be doing them.

Using the word to describe this, is an abuse of language. It pretends something for which there can not be an established thing. It seems vague, diffuse, and vacuous, and the origins of the word have always referred to god, gods, demons, spirits, bug-bears, and fairies, and all manner of things beyond the physical realm, when what YOU have is an internal feeling, no more..

PS... and who is "WE", is that the Royal "WE"?

Ok, the reason life has formed in this universe, is just another by product of how the universe transforms energies. According to Atheist, that is the only reason life exist no other reason or purpose.

if not, whats their reason or purpose? and to say there is no purpose or reason is a flawed philosophy. Because everything that we make as humans and also what is made in the universe, has a specific job, purpose or reason for existing.

...When I had cancer I lost 33lbs the hard way, vomiting from chemo , losing my taste buds through radiotherapy, coughing up blood. ...

Did you ever pray to God that this one day be gone?

Did you ever pray to God that this one day be gone?

Never. I remember one night bent over the bath with a throat burning from 6 weeks of radiotherapy, vomiting up acid across my already painful throat, too weak to breath properly - I did think that if I had a button to make myself disappear for ever I would have pressed it right then.

Praying to god would have been a denial of myself, and a contradiction. An omnipotent, omniscient being, ahs to be causing my suffering - so what good would prayer do? He has to know how I feel, so why not end it for me now? Why give him the satisfaction?

-- Updated July 27th, 2012, 3:52 pm to add the following --

Ok, the reason life has formed in this universe, is just another by product of how the universe transforms energies. According to Atheist, that is the only reason life exist no other reason or purpose.
This is a material/formal/efficient cause, not a purpose.
if not, whats their reason or purpose? and to say there is no purpose or reason is a flawed philosophy. Because everything that we make as humans and also what is made in the universe, has a specific job, purpose or reason for existing.

How does this follow? What are you trying to say?