Religion vs. Philosophy

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.

Post Number:#31  Postby Belinda » April 12th, 2011, 4:36 am

I have been thinking that religious experiences are a subset of art. Religious experiences are basically expressive experiences as are art experiences.

The fact that man's religious experiences can be used by rulers to make the society more 'efficient' is comparable to how rulers use art to do likewise.

I think I understand what Spectrum means. However when religion is used as if it could explain how the universe works this is religion being used when science and philosophy could do a better job.In the olden days,which are still with us in many localities, religion is mixed up with science and ethics, although philosophy and science are together better kept apart from how we express our feelings(art/religion) until we have tried to be rational and to gather as much knowledge as possible.

I would therefore prefer to class philosophy with science, and religious experience with art.
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Post Number:#32  Postby PaulNZ » April 12th, 2011, 4:48 am

Belinda wrote:I have been thinking that religious experiences are a subset of art. Religious experiences are basically expressive experiences as are art experiences....

...I would therefore prefer to class philosophy with science, and religious experience with art.


This very much makes sense to me and I couldn't agree more. After all, the concept of God is the ultimate expression of ourselves.



:wink:
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Post Number:#33  Postby Spectrum » April 12th, 2011, 5:59 am

In general, within the dischotomy of 'science vs arts', 'religion' would be appropriately considered as 'arts' as with music, painting, and the other humanities.
In modern times, 'philosophy' as a subject of study would also be placed under the category of 'arts'.

However, I am considering 'philosophy proper' at a meta level as an 'impulse for knowledge' (i.e. science and arts) to facilitate the survival of the individual and the specie.
This is PHILOSOPHY (meta) proper which encompasses science and the arts.

Thus the order of knowledge would be,

PHILOSOPHY - meta level
...1. Science

...2. Arts
........2a - Various humanities.
........2b - philosophy as a subject
........2c - Religion (incl, philosophical, other aspects)
........2d - Music
........2e - Painting, etc.

Thus in the above, PHILOSOPHY is the main set with Science and Arts as subset, and religion being a subset of Arts.
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Post Number:#34  Postby Wooden shoe » April 12th, 2011, 1:17 pm

I just cannot see religion as a subset of art, but it would seem to me it might fit in with the social sciences.
Philosophy in its basic form is the quest for truth, while religion dictates its brand of truth.
The religious philosopher who will stay with its religion will always run into the barriers of the absolutes of that religion.
Thomas Of Aquinas was not accepted by the Catholic church until the 19th century because he introduced some new ideas. [/quote]
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Post Number:#35  Postby Therapon » April 13th, 2011, 3:50 am

Wooden shoe wrote:I just cannot see religion as a subset of art, but it would seem to me it might fit in with the...sciences.

Regardless, at University level both Religion and Philosophy are placed in the Arts, not the sciences. You can get a Bachelor, or Master of Arts in religion/theology and/or philosophy but not a Bsc.

Religion is bad science only if you mistakenly think it should be taught under the sciences.

As a form of Art, the art of life, Religion is pretty awesome. :shock:
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Post Number:#36  Postby Wooden shoe » April 13th, 2011, 2:12 pm

Therapon you are correct, but I was thinking of religion in reality, not in the abstract.
The original question was whether both religion and philosophy were seeking Truth. I think only philosophy is seeking truth unconstrained, where as religion is bound by dogma and absolutes! 2 examples come to mind:slavery and equality of the sexes. It was humanism that brought these to the fore, while some religions are still fighting them. Philosophy is freeing while religion boxes its adherents in and enforces them sometimes with force, sometimes through ostracizing those who "stray from the truth".
Having recently read "A history of the Arab people" by Hourani, I was struck by how confining their religion was for philosophers in that culture, as some died for the seeking of truth. Similar situations occurred in Europe.
So I see religion as a social control, at best through persuasion and at its wurst by the sword
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Whats the difference between Religon and Philosophy?

Post Number:#37  Postby Crazywisdomyogi » April 13th, 2011, 8:46 pm

There are none. They are both theories that can be either right or wrong.:0)
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Post Number:#38  Postby Wooden shoe » April 13th, 2011, 10:31 pm

Crazywisdomyogi you are correct if you are on the outside looking in but you would have a different opinion being on the inside of a religion. I spent 50 years of my life within the confines of a moderate protestant religion and even served some time on the board that made the decisions, but I was a leper in their eyes as soon as I stepped outside of their rules!
There are no rules for philosophy, and any philosopher can come out with any idea, crazy or realistic, their idea of truth.
This is not so within religion, say if you are Catholic, and you start advocating choice or the right to abortion for women, and see how quickly you are turfed out.
Just look at the big fight in the USA over evolution and tell me again that religion seeks truth.
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Post Number:#39  Postby Therapon » April 14th, 2011, 3:25 am

Wooden shoe wrote:Therapon you are correct, but I was thinking of religion in reality, not in the abstract.
The original question was whether both religion and philosophy were seeking Truth. I think only philosophy is seeking truth unconstrained, where as religion is bound by dogma and absolutes!

Well yes I think you're kinda right, to me religion is philosophy for beginners. Particular Schools of philosophy , like Platonism for instance, can be like religions though, once the founders message has been stated his followers simply try to uphold it.

Also Buddhism is essentially more like a philosophy than a religion but it looks and acts like a religion and it has it's fundamentalists.
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Post Number:#40  Postby Crazywisdomyogi » April 14th, 2011, 10:00 am

Thank you first of all for replying. I am looking from the inside. Anything can be created by the mind therefore anything can be either right or wrong. Anything you discuss or think about or respond to is of the minds unique inventive computer like memory. The past, future and the present rely upon the combination of all things that are in existence or will come into existence if the mind allows it to be recognized."Knowledge about a thing is knowledge about its relations." (William James)
To understand anything fully we must go beyond the mind where all things are and have the potentential to be discovered.(Meditation can take you there eventually.) Basically, everything has is own individual cause and relies on everything else, as right or wrong this may appear to be. :0)
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Post Number:#41  Postby Wooden shoe » April 14th, 2011, 7:30 pm

We experience the now through the lens of all our yesterdays!
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Post Number:#42  Postby Oisif » April 22nd, 2011, 1:24 pm

Therapon wrote:
Wooden shoe wrote:I just cannot see religion as a subset of art, but it would seem to me it might fit in with the...sciences.

Regardless, at University level both Religion and Philosophy are placed in the Arts, not the sciences.

Theology (Christian) as a degree subject is placed among the Humanities, with Politics and Economics. That is because theology is inherently systematic and rigorous, more so than either politics or economics (except Marxism). Theology used to be called the 'queen of sciences', using the latter term in its broad sense.
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Post Number:#43  Postby edelker » April 27th, 2011, 11:50 am

Hello all,

Oisif wrote,

“Theology (Christian) as a degree subject is placed among the Humanities, with Politics and Economics. That is because theology is inherently systematic and rigorous, more so than either politics or economics (except Marxism). Theology used to be called the 'queen of sciences', using the latter term in its broad sense.”


As a person with a degree in theology…the above is a pure opinion! Unless, you have some technical sense of the word “rigorous” in mind that I’m currently unaware of.


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the truth

Post Number:#44  Postby Mmailey1974 » July 26th, 2011, 2:19 pm

religion is man made so is philosophy.
religion to me is silly man made laws.
philosophy is better,but there are philosophies that are very silly.
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Post Number:#45  Postby enegue » July 29th, 2011, 4:47 am

Wooden shoe wrote:There are no rules for philosophy, and any philosopher can come out with any idea, crazy or realistic, their idea of truth.

This is true because philosophy in not going anywhere. Philosophers don't want to go anywhere. They just want to contemplate stuff. There are no goals.

That doesn't mean philosophy is not valuable. On the contrary, philosophers dwell in a world of ideas that provide necessary resources for those who ARE going somewhere, like religions.

cheers,
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