Why did God create the world and man?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Wesgtr
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Re: Why did God create the world and man?

Post by Wesgtr » December 30th, 2017, 6:01 pm

Jklint wrote:
December 30th, 2017, 1:44 am
LuckyR wrote:
December 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm
But who is to say that gods created anything? Perhaps gods are just habitants of the universe (like us).

There are plenty of religions where the universe wasn't created by gods, the gods just live in the universe.
Hail the untempled sinuous sublime
God unrendered which renders god divine!
Was that from Essay on Man by Alexander Pope? You must tell me, lest I peruse the entire text.

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Wesgtr
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Re: Why did God create the world and man?

Post by Wesgtr » December 30th, 2017, 6:12 pm

Greta wrote:
December 28th, 2017, 5:52 pm
Wesgtr wrote:
December 28th, 2017, 5:11 pm
Greta,

I realize now that you are not a creationist. That is fine. However, what convinces you that "powerful natural processes" makes humanity, I presume, "collateral damage?" And, can I ask one more: why do you think that your version of the world's beginning is better than a creationists?
I assume that you are not referring to the obviously mythological anthropomorphic deity that people refer to as "He" but a fundamental intelligence posited to exist within the fabric of reality by mystics, and more properly referred to as "it"; some models being pantheistic and others panentheistic.

You ask why I think the way I do. Why do you think the way you do? :) As far as I can tell, we are each small, somewhat aware parts of the Earth with a particular perspective shaped by temperament and life experience.

Was there always intelligence in the universe or is reality gradually becoming more aware and intelligent? I don't know the answer to that question, one that's been disagreed upon through history by many sharper minds than ours. From our human perspective it looks like awareness evolves, but if we do reside within a larger, exponentially more sophisticated mentality, how could we possibly know?

Is this is the first universe or the trillionth? Maybe in previous universes some beings kept evolving and advancing, progressively solving the ever greater perils thrown at them by the cosmos, even surviving the heat death of their universe. There mere presence of such beings would influence any subsequent big bang, since they would necessarily change the initial state of what would be a chaotic system. Aka "God".

Given that this is a philosophy forum rather than a religious forum, my doubt leaves me no choice but stay on the fence and lean towards the view that's least reliant on assumptions, and hope for more information to help clarify the situation.
I guess I will think you an agnostic. I take this from your fourth paragraph where you said, "if we do reside within a larger, exponentially more sophisticated mentality, how could we possibly know?" I think we can know. There are quite a few who thought so also. They would understand God through philosophy and theology. If the extant visions of a Julian Norwich are no less important than the E=mc2 or the thoughts of Richard Dawkins, then why do we not listen to theology? Do we listen? Sure we can. And, why shouldn't we? Visions of a Julian of Norwich may be equally as true as a Richard Dawkins atheistic claims. Perhaps she is more true. And, she is not highly rational. I agree with those who say there is more than meets the eye, more than meets the measure of a scientific instrument. And, my IQ is pretty high. I scored a 132. That's the 98th percentile.

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Re: Why did God create the world and man?

Post by Jklint » December 31st, 2017, 1:00 am

Wesgtr wrote:
December 30th, 2017, 6:01 pm
Jklint wrote:
December 30th, 2017, 1:44 am


Hail the untempled sinuous sublime
God unrendered which renders god divine!
Was that from Essay on Man by Alexander Pope? You must tell me, lest I peruse the entire text.
No! Pope believed in God but his Essay on Man is definitely worth the time and effort. There's a good deal of philosophy in it too!

I just noticed a slight misquote. It should read:

Hail the untempled sinuous sublime
God unrendered which renders gods divine!


With everyone here only writing to each other, I'm surprised anyone noticed. At least there's someone here with a sixth sense as to kind of meaning poetry can convey.

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Greta
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Re: Why did God create the world and man?

Post by Greta » December 31st, 2017, 2:26 am

Wesgtr wrote:
December 30th, 2017, 6:12 pm
I guess I will think you an agnostic. I take this from your fourth paragraph where you said, "if we do reside within a larger, exponentially more sophisticated mentality, how could we possibly know?"

I think we can know. There are quite a few who thought so also. They would understand God through philosophy and theology.
They would claim to understand God through philosophy and theology, and without feeling the need to provide proofs despite the well-documented capacity for humans to create false memories and for their perceptions to be shaped by their schemas. That is simply guesswork presented as truth.

As a matter of interest, your IQ is the same as my late sister's. She was a Jehovah's Witness and apparently believed in their patent nonsense of young Earth creationism that was simply based on the dodgy arithmetic of Archbishop James Ussher in the mid 1600s. Intelligent people make mistakes too.

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Re: Why did God create the world and man?

Post by Wesgtr » January 3rd, 2018, 7:34 pm

Well, firstly, I agree with you that intelligent people make mistakes. Less intelligent people do, too. And, secondly, I was in no way suggesting any high IQ requires belief in God or freedom from mistakes. I merely wanted to suggested that the reasons for what I suggested--more than evidence--in the world was not because I am less intelligent than those who say we need evidence.

Proofs are good, but how far can we go with reason and rationality to prove anything? Is it even possible to prove the unseen? I think many have made proofs about God, and I am, of course, referring to the Judeo-Christian God. But, how good are these proofs? I don't know. I haven't studied them enough. But, I intend to do so. I think it comes down to faith. But, I think it is Aquinas and Anselm make good arguments for the existence of God.

I would disagree with anyone who believes that faith and belief are a mistake. Conversely, they are what sets one free when placed in the right source. That's been my experience.

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Re: Why did God create the world and man?

Post by Greta » January 3rd, 2018, 9:30 pm

Wesgtr wrote:
January 3rd, 2018, 7:34 pm
Proofs are good, but how far can we go with reason and rationality to prove anything? Is it even possible to prove the unseen? I think many have made proofs about God, and I am, of course, referring to the Judeo-Christian God. But, how good are these proofs? I don't know. I haven't studied them enough. But, I intend to do so. I think it comes down to faith. But, I think it is Aquinas and Anselm make good arguments for the existence of God.
How can can we go with guesswork and intuition? Reason and rationality have gone much further.

Why should anyone believe without proofs? There's no point unless you are using belief as a "life hack" to extract greater performance from yourself. Otherwise we might as well see what new ideas crop up in coming years.

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