Why Donald Trump disappointed me

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Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#1  Postby Roel » May 15th, 2017, 9:36 pm

Some people here might be surprised that someone supported Trump. It wasn't actually because of "meh MAGA I 'm deplorable get out immigrants", no, it was for quite different reasons.

Politics has been run by an establishment which did different things from the ones which the democratic voice expected them to do and an incredible disdain for the voters. Bill Clinton promised to do something for a city after he would win, never done. Bush threw everyone in a war on terrorism, it created many problems and barely anyone wanted it except for the party establishment.

Trump was different. Political correctness is forming a serious problem in this age in which you can't say anything anymore without offending anyone, and we are losing our traditions and culture and are throwing away really valuable heritage because of poor arguments why they are offensive, a good example is islam being offended by Christianity, which leads to all kinds of ridiculous situations like demands to not greet people in Austria with Grüß Gott. Trump went very far, and to be honest I don't agree with generalizations he make or locker-room talk about women, which was obtained in a sneaky way by a family member of Bush, but it was necessary to break open things, this political incorrectness of Trump gave fresh air to more uncomfortable opinions and statements and instead of locking everyone up and keeping peoples' mouth shut, his extreme political incorrectness made it possible to say things which many people don't want to hear, about negative effects of immigration or myths like the white man being responsable for slave trade alone, while many slave traders were Arabs, Portuguese Jews, and even black Africans themselves too, which is simply ignored by many liberals. This is a good thing of Trump in my opinion.

My disappointment came after the strike of the Syrian air base, applauded by many, I didn't like it because it wad breaking his promise to not intervene, and if we learned ONE thing, it is that regime changes and heavy intervention never ended well.

It is also confusing how his statements change, I think it might be part of a deliberate strategy, but it gets confusing.

I can't really say that I stopped liking Trump, he still fights against lobbying and a corrupt political establishment, but I hope that he will stop listening to Jared Kushner too much. A second Bush is something which nobody wants, except for Bush himself.
"Genuine tragedies in the world are not conflicts between right and wrong. They are conflicts between two rights." - Friedrich Hegel
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Why Donald Trump disappointed me



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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#2  Postby Dolphin42 » May 16th, 2017, 6:08 am

Bush threw everyone in a war on terrorism, it created many problems and barely anyone wanted it except for the party establishment.


So, in your mind, Bush woke up one morning and said "let's have a war on terrorism"? The only way you will have any hope of understanding why global events unfold as they do is if you try to actually look at the chains of events - cause and effect, without the benefit of hindsight, and try to put yourself in the position of the human beings involved.

My disappointment came after the strike of the Syrian air base, applauded by many, I didn't like it because it wad breaking his promise to not intervene, and if we learned ONE thing, it is that regime changes and heavy intervention never ended well.


This is completely consistent with Trump's clear central aim in life: for Trump to be Seen to Win. This has always been his stated aim, so I applaud his consistency. We absolutely cannot say that we weren't warned. The best way for a president to be seen to win is to beat somebody who is playing the same game as him - another president. So the aim is to beat Obama and to win, win win. Everything else is secondary.

That is why we get a "complete and utter repeal of nasty, ugly horrible Obamacare with a beautiful, beautiful total and utter replacement" when neither Trump nor most Republicans actually know or care what is in the replacement. Doesn't matter. So long as it can be claimed that it isn't Obamacare. And that's why we get a nice neat comparison between the response to two gas attacks. One from weak, pathetic, red-line-drawing Obama and one from strong decisive Trump.

Why on Earth did you think that he would refrain from intervening in other countries' wars?
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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#3  Postby Eduk » May 17th, 2017, 9:31 am

Roel, for those on the outside looking in Trump being inconsistent is the equivalent of saying if I drop my pen it will fall and hit the floor. It's so obvious that it's weird to even mention it. From the inside however it is very difficult to notice inconsistencies so I for one applaud your intellectual honesty. Please don't take this to mean that I support Clinton, we can both agree that Clinton (either one) is not someone who we would choose to be the president (not that I get a choice, but you get the point).
I would like to make some points which I hope you will find interesting.
1. If all racists vote for X and you vote for X that does not mean you are a racist. Everyone should agree with that. But is it an issue that all racists are voting for X and you are voting for X, is that a problem? Is furthering the political ideals of racists a good or a bad thing? It might well be a necessary evil when it comes to voting as I've never been in the situation where I could vote for an ideal candidate, but is my point worth any time thinking about?
2. Politicians from within the establishment almost by definition have to work within the rules of the establishment. If the establishment is fundamentally corrupt then would it even be possible for someone who wasn't corrupt to rise within the party system? This is basically agreeing with you. But is Trump not a part of the establishment being that he is insanely rich? It's not like he had no political power before his foray into politics? You also, even if we agree that he isn't establishment, have to show that he is better than the establishment. Being different in and of itself is not enough, anyone can be different.
3. I don't understand the fear people have of PC? To my mind it's a mostly irrelevant annoyance, like children's birthday parties. I can't think of real harm which policies accused of being PC have caused. Most of the policies stated aims are to prevent harm. I mean it's a good thing that people don't discriminate against other people right? I guess it's discriminating against people who discriminate, but is that a bad thing? You could of course argue that the policies don't work or they flawed in other ways, that's reasonable, but all I'm asking for is specific examples?
4. Negative effects of immigration are contentious amongst various disciplines (say economics). You will find respectable people saying it is of net benefit and respectable people who say it is not. Having a discussion is perfectly valid, the problem is in assuming that either side is 100% right to a massive degree. It's possible for example that migration is of net benefit but only by 0.00001%, so stopping it or allowing it would make no difference (overall). Basically my point is that this matter is extremely complex and not settled.
5. I don't know of anyone ever saying only white men owned slaves? That is clearly wrong and I agree with you 100%. If you are getting shot down by saying that I'd like to hear some examples?
6. I don't see Trump as a bastion for fighting corruption, sorry. I may be off the mark here but in my mind the average Trump voter isn't voting for him because they are racist (at least no more racist than anyone else on average) but out of despair in the state of politics and hope (not expectation) that Trump will do anything to improve matters?
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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#4  Postby Supine » May 19th, 2017, 12:04 am

Roel wrote:My disappointment came after the strike of the Syrian air base, applauded by many, I didn't like it because it wad breaking his promise to not intervene, and if we learned ONE thing, it is that regime changes and heavy intervention never ended well.


I just read he has bombed Syrian forces again.

The US White House is very much the same as the Vatican intrigue with internal factions and treachery. The White House could run more efficiently and for the people, just as the Brazilian or Mexican Governments could for theirs but they don't and they won't because being elected (as opposed to being hired and capable of being fired in a nano second) and appealing only to people's bias emotions (not logic as supposedly used in philosophy) means you can keep rolling in a large salary even if you produce zero positive products or services for the citizenry of your nation.

I guess being an elected politician is like being a profit focused bible preacher opening your own church. Actually, even those preachers provide more positive services for their congregation (often times getting many off drugs and teaching them positive work habits and financial responsibility.)

So, while Trump bombs Syria the liberals and Democrats and McCain faction Republicans are screaming Trump has committed a heinous act by "leaking" "classified info" to the Russians that could get Americans killed.

Yet, apparently, USA Today and the treacherous "faithful" who "leaked" "classified info" to journalist (why are you telling them classified info if your yap is tighter than Trumps?) have blabbed that "classified info" to the whole world including ISIS. USA Today blabbering to every person like me who has no security clearance the so, so, classified information no Russian mother traveling with her 7 year-old child should know. :roll:

usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/0 ... 101802538/

Donald Trump's leak of classified information involved bombs and new batteries


WASHINGTON — The intelligence finding that President Trump divulged to Russian officials during a meeting last week at the White House involved an advance in bomb making developed by the Islamic State that could be used against commercial aircraft, according to a U.S. official.

Operatives from the Islamic State, or ISIS, have determined how to implant and mask an explosive inside the battery of a laptop computer, increasing the likelihood that a bomb can be slipped past screeners onto an airplane.

The battery with the explosive charge still functions enough to allow airport security officials to power up the laptop, a standard test to determine if the machine is safe, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because officials are not authorized to speak publicly about intelligence matters.

The release of classified information was described in a memo to government agencies after the meeting between Trump, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Ambassador Sergey Kislyak and was first reported by the Washington Post.


I mean really... how low of morals do Democrats hold? Liberals want Russian, Mexican, Nigerian, and Australian civilians traveling with their little kids on commercial airplanes blown up.

Not Republican or Democrat are putting their heads together to resolve the big problems inside the USA, like say, legislating all new buildings be wired with fiber optics, fixing bridges, reducing homelessness etc. Instead, they are playing Vatican emotive tit for tat faction games. What service to the provide? Nada. A door man opens a door (service) a plumber fixes your sink (service) the cashier rings up the price of your groceries (service) but these politicians do jack zero service for the people. Nor do they make products (like car parts, cosmetics, shoes, tools, cell phones, pens, eyeglasses, dog food etc.).

They do do one thing though: cause more problems. Stir trouble up.
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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#5  Postby Grotto19 » May 19th, 2017, 10:55 pm

Roel wrote:
I can't really say that I stopped liking Trump, he still fights against lobbying and a corrupt political establishment, but I hope that he will stop listening to Jared Kushner too much. A second Bush is something which nobody wants, except for Bush himself.


Are you at all aware that he got rid of lobbyists for Goldman Sax by putting directly in office members of Goldman Sax! I am not joking or pulling your leg. I am not an SJW or ideologue of any sort but this president is an actual disaster. It is one thing to be taken in by a huckster, it’s embarrassing but it can happen to anyone. But to still believe someone after the openly show you they lied to you, this I don’t understand.

If you want that wall which will do nothing other than cost us a lot of money (trust me Mexico is not going to pay for a wall we want and they give no craps about), then Trump is your guy. If you want to keep Muslims out of the country because they could be a threat Trump is your….actually no he isn’t because all the nations he wants to ban are the ones that don’t actually generate terrorists, and all the ones which do generate terrorists are not on the banned list, every single one of them can still come here even if his ban goes through.

And then there is crooked Hillary, or is it Crooked Comey, or is it crooked media, or is it….possibly…maybe…just a chance perhaps…CROOKED TRUMP. I’m sure all these Russian ties and the long history of scam businesses Trump ran in the past are all just coincidence. No reason to think the past predicts the future. I am sure it’s nothing. Who doesn’t have 23 fraud cases pending am I right?

Is none of this a red flag for you guys? Is there any point where you might consider the possibility ops I backed the wrong horse? I am not trying to be combative here I really am not, but it’s kind of my nations life and livelihood on the line here and I just don’t get the mental process of people who ever let alone still believe this guy is serving them. You may say all politicians are corrupt, but there are still degrees of corruption.
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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#6  Postby Eduk » May 20th, 2017, 3:23 am

Grotto you should attempt to understand the driving force. Not all Trump supporters are dumb or racist.
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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#7  Postby Grotto19 » May 20th, 2017, 3:37 am

Eduk wrote:Grotto you should attempt to understand the driving force. Not all Trump supporters are dumb or racist.


I didn't claim they are. And do elaborate on this driving force you cite though is not defined and not elaborated on by you. If you know something which I do not regarding the situation I would love for you to enlighten me. My mind is always thirsty for new knowledge and this “driving force” is unknown to me. Which is odd because I am pretty current on most political events. But do enlighten me I am far from all knowing. What is this driving force which makes madness actually sane or sound logic?

-- Updated May 20th, 2017, 3:43 am to add the following --

Grotto19 wrote:
Eduk wrote:Grotto you should attempt to understand the driving force. Not all Trump supporters are dumb or racist.


I didn't claim they are. And do elaborate on this driving force you cite though is not defined and not elaborated on by you. If you know something which I do not regarding the situation I would love for you to enlighten me. My mind is always thirsty for new knowledge and this “driving force” is unknown to me. Which is odd because I am pretty current on most political events. But do enlighten me I am far from all knowing. What is this driving force which makes madness actually sane or sound logic?


Actually that is ot true I know several driving forces for it. But they don't help your case at all. So I wish to hear your driving force which I was as yet not aware of.
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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#8  Postby Eduk » May 20th, 2017, 5:26 am

I'm not a Trump supporter. I suggest asking them seriously, the reason won't necessarily be the one they give. For example there are various ethical studies where people are able to make moral judgements but are not able to explain their reasoning (this does not mean the judgement is not sound).
But I would guess some of the driving forces are the same as for any hard felt position where that feeling was out of proportion with evidence and logic.
1. I imagine the people involved are not doing great.
2. I imagine they don't think they will do great under Clinton.
3. They probably feel most news sources are biased.
4. They probably think they know a lot more than they do.
5. They likely feel the government demonstrably works for businesses which demonstrably work for themselves.
6. They probably hate not knowing stuff, but hate complicated answers even more.
7. They hope things will be better under Trump, but probably don't expect them to be.
8. There friends support Trump.

etc.

I personally feel like it's a reaction against the perception of corruption and unfairness. Trump is the hope in something different and better. But like I said ask a Trump supporter.
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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#9  Postby Wilson » May 20th, 2017, 8:49 pm

Finally, a president who lives up to expectations. (That's not original with me, by the way)

Roel, I have to say, your evaluation skills (and those of the others who voted for him) must be awful. It was obvious to most of us that Trump was a con man with narcissistic personality disorder, an unstable ignoramus who is the last person we should trust to make intelligent decisions for the country. Voting for someone, anyone, just so there will be a change is a crazy approach. Hitler would have been a change, too. So it's good that you've figured out that Trump isn't your savior, but good God, man, that should have been obvious from the beginning.
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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#10  Postby Spectrum » May 20th, 2017, 11:31 pm

I am not from the US and not a 'psychological' [emotional] supporter of Trump. Obviously who is the US President will have a certain degree of impact to the rest of the World.

However given the choices available for the last president election I believe Trump is the best man objectively for the job in the current conditions, despite that he is likely a narcissist, psychopath [of some degrees], ego-maniac and others.

Now I wonder how many people use the basis of the Weighted Average basis to arrive at a decision as to who to choose as the President.
http://www.exceltrick.com/how_to/calcul ... -in-excel/
The effective method to arrive at a decision in the case of selecting a President is to list the relevant criteria as declared in his/her proposed policies.

Example of the criteria for considerations were;

    1. World Politics
    2. Economics - US
    2. Economics - World
    3. Healthcare
    4. Immigration
    5. The Wall
    6. Islamic terrorism
    7. Other terrorism
    8. Russia
    9. Race
    10. Others

Generally we will give points out of 100 for their potential performance for each criteria and total all the points. The one with the highest point or the average % is the winner??

But basing on merely the total is not very effective.
To be effective we must use the Weighted Average basis by giving the appropriate weightings to each criteria.

In my case I would give the following weightings (%) to each criteria;

1. World Politics - 5%
2. Economics - US =25%
2. Economics - World -5%
3. Healthcare -5%
4. Immigration -5%
5. The Wall - 5%
6. Islamic terrorism = 30%
7. Other terrorism -5%
8. Russia -5%
9. Race -5%
10. Others- 5%[/list]

The weightings given must total 100%

Now with Trump, his points for Islamic terrorism I would've given him 90 points out of 100.
A appx computation of his points would be
    economics-US = 90/100 x 25% = 22.5
    Islamic terrorism = 90/100 x 30% = 27.0
Since this two criteria has the highest weightings, Trump would likely be on the top.
Note this is not based on current knowledge but based on then during the election campaign.

As for Clinton I would have given her;
1. economics -US = 30/100 x 25% = 7.5
2. Islamic terrorism = 5/100 x 30% =1.5

We can do the exercise for the other criteria but whatever the score of these other criteria, the maximum score is only 5 thus there is not likely to be of great impact.

I am well aware, Trump is an ego maniac and psychopath [to some degree] but
on the above basis, the obvious choice [semi-objectively] for me would be Trump over Clinton.

The above is rough exercise to give consideration to weightings and we can do better with more criteria and factor in other weightings like probability of success, etc.
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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#11  Postby Wilson » May 21st, 2017, 3:28 am

Spectrum, it ain't that complicated.
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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#12  Postby Eduk » May 21st, 2017, 3:29 am

How do you arrive at the conclusion of the weighting of terrorism. And how do you arrive at the conclusion that Trump would tackle the issues better than Clinton?
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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#13  Postby Felix » May 21st, 2017, 6:07 am

Spectrum: The effective method to arrive at a decision in the case of selecting a President is to list the relevant criteria as declared in his/her proposed policies.


So you vote for candidates based solely on their promises? Boy, you are a politician's dream voter!

Trump never defined what his policies would be, I don't think he himself knew. His modus operandi was to tell narrow-minded and bigoted people whatever they longed to hear, or as they say in marketing, to sell the sizzle and not the steak, which is exactly what the people who voted for him got: lots of sizzle and no steak (he's eating their steak).
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#14  Postby Burning ghost » May 21st, 2017, 7:30 am

The sad truth is Capitalism is failing and I doubt very much the US can pull itself out of the stupor its put itself in. The US has structured its whole government and economy in such a way that it cannot stop its own demise, and sadly it will pull the rest of the world down with it rather than admit that things ain't going how they expected and that their system may actually not be the best option.
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Re: Why Donald Trump disappointed me

Post Number:#15  Postby Eduk » May 21st, 2017, 8:00 am

What system is the best option? Capitalism is the worst possible system, apart from all the others.
Systems are tricky to say the least.
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