Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

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Londoner
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Londoner » December 9th, 2017, 11:37 am

Dachshund wrote:
December 9th, 2017, 10:45 am
Londoner,

I did not say that Christianity was a type of rationalism.
You said:
What fundamentally distinguishes White/European Western culture/ civilization from other civilizations is the notion of RATIONALISM in the various spheres of life, though especiallyly in religion, and ESPECIALLY in the practice of the CHRISTIAN RELIGION.
What I said was that if one is looking for a sole, fundamental ,distinguishing attribute of Western culture/civilization, then many historians would argue that if such a single attribute were for argument's sake ,hypothesised to exist, it would most probably manifest itself in the way that for the majority of its history, Western culture has characteristically been progressively developed by the blending or infusion of rationalism ( the use of thought/cognition/intellect in the form of logical, inductive, deductive abductive and other forms of reasoning) with the core tenets and values of the Christian faith (or Christian religious culture).


In what sense is the core tenet, a belief in a metaphysical God, rational?
This was exemplified in the writings of the scholastic philosopher/theologian Thomas Aquinas in the middle age. Saint Thomas, through his work synthesized the rationalism of classical Aristotelian philosophy and science with the principles of Christianity in a brilliantly articulated theory of theological reasoning. In fact, Francisco de Vitoria, a disciple of St Thomas, is recognised by United Nations as the father of international law and by historians of economics and democracy as a leading light for the West's democracy and rapid economic development.
But at the same time we have figures like Bernard of Clairvaux and sundry mystics who argued the opposite. Francisco de Vitoria argued some ideas which we are in sympathy with now, but they were in opposition to mainstream thinking of the time. You cannot cherry-pick certain elements and declare they are the 'culture' and ignore the rest. The culture is everything.
Briefly,If you read your history carefully, you will discover that the Catholic Church has pretty much always been at the centre of - and massively influenced -the progressive development of the values, ideas, science, laws and institutions which constitute Western culture/civilization. I can't do this for you.
What you mean is 'If you read your history selectively...'
As to Christianity in the contemporary West, the overwhelming majority of the citizens of the US, the UK, Australia, Canada, Western Europe still identity as Christian. I agree with you that many of 1.2 billion such persons who identify as Christians in advanced Western societies today are in fact "merely" nominal Christian, in the sense that they lack true, personalChristian faith ( i.e. faith in the divinely revealed supernatural knowledge of Biblical scripture), nonetheless, they still give their intellectual assent to the core precepts of Christian morality and other Christian doctrines and are often regular participants in liturgical rites and worship services who are actively involved , also,in the broader spiritual/social life and also the charitable/pastoral work of their local Christian community.
That is doubtful; it is extremely doubtful if the Christianity they pay lip-service to has much in common with historic Christianity.

Also, if you are linking Catholic Christianity with rationalism, philosophy, science, democracy and all that, then it would be the case that the more Christian they are the more successful they would be in those fields. The reverse seems to be the case. If anything, traditional Catholicism tends to be associated with less prosperous, more repressive societies. (But note that I do not claim cause and effect, I simply point out that there is not the correlation you claim).
I will deal with the racial aspects of Western culture/civilization in more detail a separate post, but, in the interim I can confirm that, yes, you are correct to say Western culture/civilization is primarily a creation of the (caucasian) White /European race.
As I recall, God did not make separate races. There is no basis in science for the concept either. Even if by 'race' you mean simply 'white-ish skin tone, the genes that go with skin pigmentation do not code for either religion or philosophical ability.

So if the marker for 'Western culture/civilization' is Christianity/rationalism, would a racist qualify as a member?

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » December 9th, 2017, 12:58 pm

Dachshund:

I presume part (at least) of your purpose here is to persuade people round to your point of view. I don't think you're having much success so far, and I think it's partly (but not wholly) because of the concentration on skin colour. Reading your words, it's difficult to maintain the belief that when you say "white" you're not talking about skin colour, as I suggested earlier might be the case. I think it distracts from your argument about the contributions that various cultures have made to the world, and your central thesis about what you regard as European culture. It just causes people to think that your're claiming a causal relationship between melanin and rationality.

You might, of course, take the view that removing this apparent obsession with skin colour would be pandering to wishy-washy, lefty, liberal political correctness? But I'd tend to take a more pragmatic view and simply try to communicate the core message about cultural difference without the unnecessary distraction of incorrectly leading us to believe that you have irrational beliefs about skin colour.


Anyway, about that core message: I'm interested in how it works. I'm happy to let your discussion with Londoner play out and see how it goes, but I'm interested to know what exactly your end point is. Is it the narrow goal of reducing the risk of terrorism? Or is it some wider goal of preserving something that you regard as European culture as it currently exists in 2017? Or would it be to roll back to some earlier time and preserve it there?

Would you like to freeze society in its current state and stop any future interactions that might, as it were, pollute European-origin culture? Ideally, would you like this to have happened before now? 50 years ago perhaps?

To take a relatively trivial example to illustrate: the legacy of British colonialism in India means that a particularly British form of Indian cuisine is now very popular in Britain. It has been said that the British national dish is Chicken Tikka Masala. In your view, is this a bad thing? Should we insist on just eating Roast Beef and Yorkshire pudding? Or is this too trivial an example?
...British culture, in turn, is comprised of a mixture of different English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish sub-cultures and their traditions. At a more fined-grained level of analysis white English culture is also seen contains its own rich variety of yet smaller cultural groupings in , for example, then Cornish ,"West Country", Liverpudlian and Cockney cultures and so on; all of which are, as I say bone fide sub-species of White/European Western or Occidental culture.
So what, if anything, would you like to do about the fact that British culture is, in reality, more than these things? What do you want to do about the fact that British culture is a complex mixture of numerous influences from around the world? For example, I personally rarely hear a "traditional" cockney accent in London any more, such as you might have heard from a young Michael Caine or Bob Hoskins. Something interesting and amusing has been happening. There appears to be a particular kind of default South East England that has taken over from the stereotypical cockney of old Ealing films and the like. It's provided some quite good material for comedians, like Mark Steele.

Is this bad? If it's bad, what do you want to do about it? Traditional cockney lessons in schools? Tax breaks for pearly kings and queens? Force people to regularly do the Lambeth Walk (oi!)?

I'm interested to know your game-plan. All you've mentioned so far is stripping the citizenship of Muslims. How would it all work?
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

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Rederic
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Rederic » December 9th, 2017, 2:09 pm

I was in London a few weeks ago for a concert. In the interval I was stood next to a Sikh who had a Cockney accent.
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Dachshund
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Dachshund » December 9th, 2017, 2:36 pm

Steve,

My game plan is the same as Trump's .Ask yourself why he recently declared the US now recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel? Tell me what you think his purpose was in making this announcement? WHY did he make this move ???

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » December 9th, 2017, 3:06 pm

Dachshund wrote:My game plan is the same as Trump's
To do the opposite of everything that Obama did?
Ask yourself why he recently declared the US now recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel? Tell me what you think his purpose was in making this announcement? WHY did he make this move ???
Because, as Steve Bannon pointed out, his constituency is a coalition of libertarians and people who regard themselves as defending what they see as traditional Christian values. As we know, Trump doesn't believe in traditional Christian values but he does believe in winning. So fulfilling his campaign promise to that section of his supporters to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel helps in that aim.

So if you tell me that your game plan is the same as that of Trump, it doesn't help me to understand you. In the case of the passage of yours about British culture which I quoted in my last post, I can't relate it to the British culture which is familiar to me. The culture in which I live is a complex mixtures of influences. When you seek to reduce it to a small set of stereotypes and announce that these are the "bone fide sub-species of White/European Western or Occidental culture", as if anything other than your interpretation is not "bone fide" and is therefore forbidden, I can't help smiling a little sadly. By seemingly wanting to stop history at a particular point in time and demand that cultures don't evolve any more from that point, you're missing out on so much and will simply be overtaken by history.
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

Steve3007
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » December 9th, 2017, 3:18 pm

Rederic wrote:...In the interval I was stood next to a Sikh who had a Cockney accent.
I always think it's interesting when a person's outward appearance seems to be at odds with the way they talk. Chinese looking people who've lived in Glasgow all their lives. That kind of thing. We humans are so fixated by these visual clues to the tribe that we think people belong, and the way in which we learn to talk as infants means that once we've learned our native language and accent it's very difficult to talk like a native in a different one as adults. These two things combine to make it seem like somebody who looks (for example) as if they come from China must be somehow genetically programmed to talk like a Chinese person. But of course they're not. If they were brought up in Glasgow they'll talk in exactly the same accent as another person who was brought up in Glasgow. Likewise with a person of Sikh heritage brought up in London.

But the replacement cockney accent I was talking about earlier was the kind of thing discussed in articles like this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10473059
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » December 9th, 2017, 3:26 pm

One of the interesting and funny things about this phenomenon (and the thing which makes it such good material for comedians) is the way that suburban kids who want to sound like they hang out with gangs in south London (like, to some extent, my own kids) emulate this accent and the associated idioms.
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

Steve3007
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » December 9th, 2017, 3:54 pm

Of course, the internet (specifically YouTube) can illustrate almost any point you care to make. So here's an example a a person of far Eastern heritage talking with a Glasgow accent. It's not a very strong one, and the poor guy is clearly reluctant for his friend to treat him like a museum curiosity (and even seems to mistake him for Irish at one point), but it'll do.
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Burning ghost » December 10th, 2017, 1:26 am

D -

I am quite up on my ancient history actually. The first instance of monotheism can be traced back to Egypt and most Greek ideas were a continuation of middle-eastern and Egyptian foundations. The whole myth of Jesus can easily be traced back to similar figures of religious historicity.

Yes, the Greeks laid down the beginning of logical reasoning. What you seem to be saying though is that this is because they were white? Note the cradle of civilization (according to mainstream academia) was not in Greece. Note also that the racial heritage of Greeks is an admixture of different ethic threads.

I guess the mathematical knowhow of the Egyptians was of no use whatsoever in creating their monuments? Science started, in its true modern form MANY centuries later (again, according to mainstream historians), because Aristotle's "science" bears little resemblance to what we call science today.

You class Einstein as "white/European" ? Have you had a DNA test yourself? Next you'll be telling me Jesus was a white man? Either way your list means nothing. btw you missed Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini and Gandhi (they were European by education). Jefferson was American not European. Spinoza had Jewish heritage. Rutherford spent his early years in New Zealand. You're asking who helped to develop western culture as if people never stepped beyond the bounds of western civilization. Your argument is there are a lot of Europeans in Europe ... I hardly call that an argument? If you went to China and asked who the most important figures in Chinese culture were you wouldn't find much of a mention of any Europeans. Why should I be surprised?

My lashing out is simply due to you using culture and race synonymously. If you're not really intending to do such and I am wrong, fair enough. I have not seen anything to suggest this though?

There a great number of mathematicians from outside of Europe and there are a great number number of achievements made by Europeans who've looked outside Europe for inspiration. There is sime dispute over Plato's possible travels to India as an example - or at least to Babylon.

I grant you there is no dispute that the ancient Greeks set the foundations for political sciences and for reason and logic.

Just in case you're unclear ... THERE IS NO RACIAL CULTURE!! There is no WHITE culture or BLACK culture. There are some divisions geographically between ethnic groups. I would hardly go around saying EAST African culture is identical to WEST African culture simply because they are black? By that logic Egypt is part of BLACK culture (it's meaningless).

Broadly speaking, this has already been mentioned, European culture (and the established colonies) share a Judeo-Christian heritage. Christianity sprung forth from Greek and Egyptian mythos as well as Middle- Eastern mythos. Really the plainest and b=most dominating force in European history was the Roman Empire upon which the full force of the religious institution was put into force during their reign over most of Europe (note they didn't speak Germanic languages primarily - from where the arguably the greater extent of philosophical reasoning was pushed due, in part, to the matter of fact nature of the German language some would argue.)

There was a small boy in India who cut of from modern civilization produced mathematical theorums that the combined force of the rest of the world had taken centruies to put together ... does this mean European culture and the rest of the world are some how inferior to Indians??
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Burning ghost » December 10th, 2017, 3:25 am

Just incase it has been edited out ... I suggested you are being [edited out LOL] if you are saying RACE <=> CULTURE. If you are not then please explain the the difference between race and culture and then present your position more clearly.

If you think they are the same thing then you're plainly wrong and need to find another term to apply to whatever it is you think.
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Greta
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Greta » December 10th, 2017, 3:46 am

BG, as I said via PM, Scott's main theme here has long been that this is a place without (so many) personal attacks.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Burning ghost » December 10th, 2017, 6:48 am

Fair enough. I just take misuse of words as a personal attack against humanity and open discourse :)

The "attack" is aimed very clearly at the misuse of words. I will openly admit that "racial" is deemed an aspect of "culture" to some degree by some definitions. That fault is mine.

I still dispute any racial category of culture though as anything other than geographic or circumstantial. Nor do I dispute that there are some racial differences, but I do dispute the evidence that backs up such claims because they are not very accurate and tend to be skewed by numerous socio-economic factors such as government, GDP and class/sexual equality - not to mention religious institutions and general education.

There is today, likely due to globalization and mass communications, I very strong feeling among people to hold onto some form of "identity" in a fast changing global climate. I am not at all surprised to see radical ideologies popping up here and there.

Regardless European culture is not what it was 2000 yrs ago and the people that have come and gone since have been exposed to all manner of outside influences. Within Europe there are distinct histories and ethnicities.
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Greta
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Greta » December 10th, 2017, 7:01 am

Fair comment, BG. Still, if western culture is to retain its identity it would ideally aspire to be something worth retaining. Increasing divisions based on supposed racial supremacy does not make the culture desirable. Ideally the freedom of the west would be touted, except that western governments everywhere have been busily tightening controls and reducing freedoms to organise growing populations and in response to the needs of important corporations.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Burning ghost » December 10th, 2017, 8:49 am

It's probably a backlash to the "white privilege" accusations being flaunted by flannel-faced do gooders. Y'know, the kind of spineless male types who walk ten feet behind their women shouting "Down with men", ironically hoping to get laid by them :P

If people start saying all people with light skin are to blame for slavery and third world poverty because their ancestors were pricks, its no wonder some turn around and say "What about Aristotle, Locke, etc.,."
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » December 10th, 2017, 9:09 am

Greta wrote:...Still, if western culture is to retain its identity it would ideally aspire to be something worth retaining. Increasing divisions based on supposed racial supremacy does not make the culture desirable. Ideally the freedom of the west would be touted, except that western governments everywhere have been busily tightening controls and reducing freedoms to organise growing populations and in response to the needs of important corporations.
This is a dilemma that many leaders of "western" countries openly wrestle with. It seems to have become a cliche of political speeches that we have to protect the openness and diversity of our cultures by making them less open and diverse. I don't think there are any easy quick-fix answers. I certainly take the point made by many people that "good fences make good neighbours" but ultimately, taking the long view, I think we simply have no choice but to engage with other people who come from cultural backgrounds that are different from our own and with whom we agree on some issues but not on other issues. If we don't do that, then I think the kinds of views expressed by Dachshund on here act as a cautionary tale of the way in which we can end up seriously contemplating the collective punishment of 3 million people (to use the example of the Muslim population of the UK) by deciding that they are all guilty by association, presumably without personally knowing any of them.

The core principles of the justice system which Dachshund holds up as one of the proud achievements of European culture are the thing that he explicitly wants to discard in the name of protecting that system.
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

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