Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

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Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

ThomasHobbes wrote: October 18th, 2018, 4:23 pm
Georgeanna wrote: October 18th, 2018, 3:02 pm Hobbes - what's with you and all the one-liners ?
Did you miss the pun?
Nope.
But I am missing your well-rounded, solid objections. Against a previous response as to what fascism is.
Could you squeeze something out...or is it too much of a strain and a pain...to produce more than a 'Nope' ?
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Nope.
But I am missing your well-rounded, solid objections. Against a previous response as to what fascism is.
Could you squeeze something out...or is it too much of a strain and a pain...to produce more than a 'Nope' ?
Fascism is ****. I think that is about as well rounded a movement as I can make this morning.

It is a political movement that mobilises the worst primal instinct of humanity and enslaves its adherents and anathematises its objectors.
I can think of nothing worse.
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Georgeanna wrote: October 18th, 2018, 12:23 pm I was too flippant in my earlier showing of appreciation on your take on traditional fascism. It sounded clever but really isn't.
I really don't condone phrases such as ' anal male movements' - it is virtually meaningless with regard to fascism. There's much more, as can be seen, to fascist psyche and motivation to reach some ideal state.
I hardly meant it as a deep analysis. But...anal in a metaphoric sense of rigid control needs around posture which are often made central in fascist propaganda and which it seems to me inform their take on the ideals in society in general.
As for their being an 'ideal man'...well. It's a romantic fiction found in Mills and Boon. Some females may swoon and dream of passionate nights held in the arms of that strong-chinned chap. Mostly, they know it's about escapism - as is any form of light entertainment.
I think you are underestimating the shallowness of many women which I think competes well with the shallowness of many men.
Fascism - is not an ideal poured out of women on men.
Yeah, I don't think that woman started it, but many go along with it and send the images of what man, woman and society should look like onto others including men and children.
And it isn't about men v women.
I tend to think women are less enamoured of fascism and they tend to have less say the more fascism there is.
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

ThomasHobbes wrote: October 19th, 2018, 3:42 am
Nope.
But I am missing your well-rounded, solid objections. Against a previous response as to what fascism is.
Could you squeeze something out...or is it too much of a strain and a pain...to produce more than a 'Nope' ?
Fascism is ****. I think that is about as well rounded a movement as I can make this morning.

It is a political movement that mobilises the worst primal instinct of humanity and enslaves its adherents and anathematises its objectors.
I can think of nothing worse.
OK. But you know the particular response I was referring to ( burning ghost ) and still you avoid. I know you can do better than this and I miss that - your willingness and ability to show your substantial knowledge in a creative and stimulating way. Never mind. Perhaps you are tired. Stay well.
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

Karpel Tunnel - we can speculate all we like about gender differences and control issues in fascism but I would like to go deeper. I think it might be worth it. I didn't realise until I started this thread that the issues were so complex.
This morning I found this:

http://threewayfight.blogspot.com/p/fas ... gs-to.html

Small easy-to-read paragraphs with references, highlighting a variety of perspectives. Included is a section on 'Men and Women'.
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

ThomasHobbes wrote: October 16th, 2018, 12:36 pm
Burning ghost wrote: October 15th, 2018, 6:06 am I’ll throw one thing out there ... fascism is not the sole property of far right views. Fascism is something that manifests in both far right and far left ideologies.
Nope.
Incase anyone is wondering about my earlier reference to Hobbes reply to burning ghost.
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

I learn something new everyday. Today's word: Manosphere.

The Brotherhood in Fascism

From: http://threewayfight.blogspot.com/2015/ ... alism.html

''Donovan has also embraced the term “anarcho-fascism,” which he explained in terms of the original fascist symbol, the fasces, a bundle of wooden rods that stands for strength and unity. Rejecting the common belief that fascism equals a totalitarian state or top-down bureaucratic rule, he identified the fasces with the “bottom-up idea” of “a unified male collective…. True tribal unity can’t be imposed from above. It’s an organic phenomenon. Profound unity comes from men bound together by a red ribbon of blood.” “…the modern, effeminate, bourgeois ‘First World’ states can no longer produce new honor cultures. New, pure warrior-gangs can only rise in anarchic opposition to the corrupt, feminist, anti-tribal, degraded institutions of the established order…. Ur-fascism is the source of honor culture and authentic patriarchal tradition.”

Elsewhere, Donovan cautions that he isn’t “an anarchist or a fascist proper,” but simply wanted to make the point that “revitalizing tribal manliness will require a chaotic break from modernity” (Sky, p. 14). Still, there are strong resonances between his ideas and early fascism’s violent male camaraderie, which took the intense, trauma-laced bonds that World War I veterans had formed in the trenches and transferred them into street-fighting formations such as the Italian squadristi and German storm troopers.

Donovan also echoes the 1909 Futurist Manifesto, a document that prefigured Italian Fascism: “We want to glorify war — the only cure for the world — militarism, patriotism, the destructive gesture of the anarchists, the beautiful ideas which kill, and contempt for woman.” All this is part of what J. Sakai meant when he wrote that fascism “is a male movement, both in its composition and most importantly in its inner worldview. This is beyond discrimination or sexism, really. Fascism is nakedly a world of men. This is one of the sources of its cultural appeal.” I don’t completely agree, because fascism can also appeal to women on a mass scale, but the inner worldview Sakai was highlighting is an important aspect of fascism, and Donovan articulates that view as well as anybody.''

-----

Beyond mere sexism. This encourages violence towards women.
But not only that, if we think of Loyalty to the Brotherhood, we witness encouragement of violence towards e.g. journalists.
By a President of the USA no less. Anyone not in his gang, his tribe, look out.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ben-jacobs

Trump has praised Greg Gianforte, the Congress member from Montana, for violently attacking a Guardian reporter, saying that someone who performs a body slam is “my guy". Watch the video. Hear the crowds cheer. Trump the hate preacher.

Trump’s comments mark the first time the president has openly and directly praised a violent act against a journalist on American soil. It comes as the White House is under intense domestic and international pressure over Trump’s refusal to condemn Saudi Arabia despite growing evidence that its leader, the crown prince Mohammed bin Salman, ordered the decapitation and dismemberment of the journalist and Saudi critic Jamal Khashoggi.
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

And the feeble, political response to Trump the hate preacher ? Indirect criticism.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ing-street

'Asked about Trump’s comments, Theresa May’s spokeswoman said: “He obviously made comments at a political rally, and those are for him. But more generally we would always say that any violence or intimidation against a journalist is completely unacceptable.”

While oblique, the criticism is relatively strong by the standards of Downing Street, which generally tries to play down condemnation of Trump’s often erratic behaviour, mindful of wider UK-US ties as well as the president’s promises about a post-Brexit trade deal.'

'Unacceptable' is what this response is. But predictable sound bites trotted out in attitude of appeasement.
'He obviously made comments at a political rally'. Obviously. But not just comments - outrageous behaviour which anywhere else could get them locked up. Hate speech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech
'Those are for him'. They are not just for him. They are for the crowd, his followers and are an incitement to violence.
'More generally..' Not good enough. This is about a specific incident. We already know the generally 'unacceptable'.
This is potentially about the beginnings, or progress, of a Fascist Dictator.

When will we wise up ?
Or are we willingly blind when it comes to serving own national interests...especially when in a weakened state.
At what cost ?
Boiled frogs.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by ThomasHobbes »

nothing to see here
Last edited by Burning ghost on October 19th, 2018, 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Split and locked topic: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15881#p322299

This post is by Burning Ghost.
Last edited by Burning ghost on October 19th, 2018, 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

ThomasHobbes wrote: October 19th, 2018, 11:34 am nothing to see here
Whatever Hobbes said - it is not true that there is 'nothing to see here' as edited by burning ghost. You see - on my preview - it doesn't even show up in the quote, so it looks like these are the words of Hobbes. Perhaps they were, and any bad bits were erased ?

It's a bit like in the movies when a cop at the scene of a crime or accident says' Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.'
So that in itself is a lie. There is something to see. It's just that we are not allowed to know. It dismisses us from the scene.

Far better, if there was a deeply offensive post, would be a straightforward deletion, no ?
People wouldn't be left wondering about the content of 2 posts. Or even if it was right for them to be edited.
Questions like this - hang there - and alter the flow, or otherwise, of a thread.

I was about to draw the thread it to an end. But I can't leave it like this...so negative.
'Nothing to see here' leaves a bad taste.
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

To be fair to burning ghost, I was pm'd about what was seen as the problem. Hobbes is considered a troll.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Burning ghost »

I meant TH added nothing new to the discussion, evaded your question and repeated his previous comments.

Note: Considered a “troll” by me. Meaning digressions, by way of single word posts or pointless one one-liners on various occasions, provocative words without any content to back them up. I’m not inclined to delete posts because they are offensive, I deleted his becasue they were repetition - he called me ignorant btw which is fine.

Georgeanna -

My aim is to keep the discussion on track. I don’t really understand what your claim is here.

“Fascism” is a politcal label that is associated more with rihgt-wing views than left-wing views. We agree on this, yet recognise that reality “fascism” is not defined by it’s place on the political spectrum at all unless we’re talking about it being an “extreme” view.

It does have the tendency to be associated with chauvinism, but I don’t see any particular reason to say this attitude is essential; prejudice being something that attaches itself to many aspects of human difference be it religion, skin colour, nationality, sex, class, age, education ... teh list goes on and on.

I would say they are consequences of more “masculine” attributes and it is here people may disagree because they may not accept that there are human attributes that are “feminine” and “masculine.” The common confusion being that many take this to mean “male” and “female” - biologically speaking it would be better to view this more along the lines of hormonal difference (sketchy I know, but certainly not something we can simply ignore.)

One common feature of the rise of fascism is about appealing to parts of society that feel “forgotten.” The thing is in politics this is always a necessary part of campaigning and an attempt to help everyone in a balanced way. When society becomes fragmented - literally or in an imagined way - then things can spiral out of control.

To refer to Trump I really don’t see him as a “Fascist,” but I do see him as a risk taking businessman who cares little about politics.

Generally speaking, do totalitarian states (A) rise slowly withconcerns being voiced openly or do (B) totalitarian states rise up slowly and stealthily under the guise of something entiely different?

If (A) maybe there is concern about Trump’s business mentality and disregard for politics. If (B) then we’re in a good position at the moment with concerns being openly voiced. I am sure there are nuanced possibilities between too!

Note: I’m not mentioning Trump again here - sick to death of it all and get inundated on another forum literally EVERYDAY about this to the point where the forum may as well be called the Trump Discussion Forum.
AKA badgerjelly
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

Burning ghost wrote:
'' Note: I’m not mentioning Trump again here - sick to death of it all and get inundated on another forum literally EVERYDAY about this to the point where the forum may as well be called the Trump Discussion Forum.'

That is your choice.
Thanks for all input. From everyone.
I will be taking time out to gather my thoughts based on own research, some excellent substantive posts and references.
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