What Is It Really A War Against?

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Chriscross
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Chriscross »

There are many medications that have suicidal thoughts as a symptom. The law says that they are also responsible for the effect it has on their psychological state.
Spiral Out wrote: The environment is not the key factor. The key factor is the user's reaction to the environment. This is the basis of responsibility.
True but, what prompted that reaction from the user?
Spiral Out wrote:
Chriscross wrote:To eliminate the demand we have to eliminate the demand for the demand.
What would the "demand for the demand" be?
The argument basically boils down to response verses stimuli. The stimuli being the environment and the response being the reaction to the environment. The stimuli is what invokes the response, therefore it's the origin. Anyone can be made to react the same as others. We are nothing more than our accumulated experiences.

I'm agnostic but this is a good example of my reasoning from Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz

1. There would be no world at all if God had not chosen to create a world. 2. The “principle of sufficient reason” says that when there is more than one alternative, there must be an explanation for why one is the case rather than another. 3. In the case of God’s choosing a particular world to create, the explanation must necessarily be found in the attributes of God himself, since there was nothing else around at the time. 4. Because God is both all-powerful and morally perfect, he must have created the best possible world. If you think about it, under the circumstances it was the only possible world. Being all-powerful and morally perfect, God could not have created a world that wasn’t the best.

Given someones life experiences and what they were taught. Their reaction is the only possible reaction if, it was any different it wouldn't be the same person. To me it always comes down to stimuli, the question is just how far back you want to go.
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Spiral Out
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Spiral Out »

Chriscross wrote:There are many medications that have suicidal thoughts as a symptom. The law says that they are also responsible for the effect it has on their psychological state.
What law? Please elaborate.
Chriscross wrote:True but, what prompted that reaction from the user?
The user's innate weakness. Not all people will react to the same conditions identically, or even similarly. What is the difference? Different people.
Chriscross wrote:The argument basically boils down to response verses stimuli. The stimuli being the environment and the response being the reaction to the environment. The stimuli is what invokes the response, therefore it's the origin.
Are you effectively blaming the stimuli for a person's decision to use drugs?
Chriscross wrote:Anyone can be made to react the same as others.
That is simply not true. No two people will react to any singular condition in the same manner, and certainly not for the same reasons. Noting your "the question is just how far back you want to go" comment in the next quote, how far out do you want to take the chain of responses to any one stimulus?
Chriscross wrote:Given someones life experiences and what they were taught. Their reaction is the only possible reaction if, it was any different it wouldn't be the same person. To me it always comes down to stimuli, the question is just how far back you want to go.
Deterministically inevitable drug use? That's an excusatory approach. And that's why the drug problem persists. The assumption is that the user had "no choice" and therefore is a victim of circumstance.

If this is the approach to take with the drug users then you must take the same approach with the drug dealers. No fault for anyone then. Drug dealers are just as hapless and helpless to deterministic factors as the drug users.
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Chriscross
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Chriscross »

Spiral Out wrote:
Chriscross wrote:There are many medications that have suicidal thoughts as a symptom. The law says that they are also responsible for the effect it has on their psychological state.
What law? Please elaborate.
I'm sorry, I was referring to your first post about the proposal.
Spiral Out wrote:
The user's innate weakness. Not all people will react to the same conditions identically, or even similarly. What is the difference? Different people.
What is the difference between different people? How would you define yourself? Are you the same person you were as a child? What innate properties do you have that makes you an individual? What is it that defines you as an individual? Genetics/DNA, name, looks? These can all be shared by others like twins. The only thing that is completely unique about someone is their experiences. The term weaknesses is completely subjective. How can someone be born with a mental weakness besides a neurological disorder?

You could think of my view as a computer program. The function will be called “me”. “me” will be the value of perception how I perceive things. Initially it is 0 or blank.

Me = total experiences; experience = environment + action ;action = me + environment ;environment = random number/factor ;loop ;All factors with the possible exception of environment will start with 0.

What I was trying to say was any problem can only be found through hindsight. If everyone and the world was “perfect” then how could we ever know there are such things as problems. Since someone cannot change their past actions it is the only possible action and, the principle of sufficient reason says there must be a reason why that outcome occurred and not the other.
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Spiral Out
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Spiral Out »

Chriscross,

If you're going to take the responsibility from the users then you'll also have to take responsibility from the dealers. Responsibility being equal among all involved, you must then look to the fundamentals of the demand/supply equation.

Eliminate the demand and the supply will follow. Simple as that.
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Sy Borg
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Sy Borg »

But surely more sensitive people are judged as weak by the less sensitive. Circumstances that seem the same can have a vastly different impact on different individuals.

Further, there have been countless claims by drug users about the mind expanding qualities of drugs, a group that includes numerous high achievers. At present we are attempting to throw the baby out with the bathwater but the situation seems more akin to damaging the baby in an ever growing and festering tub of bathwater.

Many people continue to use drugs but they do so in ignorance due to the stigma and repression. This nullifies the potential benefits and causes damage. What if we treated people like adults and gave them real information?
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Spiral Out
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Spiral Out »

Greta wrote:What if we treated people like adults and gave them real information?
What if we explained the reality of using drugs and let them make their own decisions? This of course would mean that they must take full responsibility for any medical costs attributable to their drug use. I'm ok with that.

I'm not against people using drugs, as long as they take full responsibility for their decision to do so. What I'm against is the ignorant scapegoating of drug suppliers in favor of treating drug users as innocent victims.

Now with a proposal for a law to hold the suppliers criminally liable for the deaths of the users in the capacity of murder, it's gone over the edge of reason. Instead of targeting the real problem, they're gaming up the heat on the scapegoats. That will have absolutely no effect on the problem.

It's a war on sensibility, not on drugs.
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Chriscross
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Chriscross »

I'm not trying to do away with responsibility but, ask what is the real problem. If a machine caught fire would it be the problem? Would it be the broken piece inside the machine. Maybe the guy that didn't oil it? The company that didn't train the employee? To me there are all problems but, can we say that any of them would have happened if earlier problems had been addressed and dealt with? I just don't like your argument (my opinion) because you place the blame on the user (also subjective) and, determine them to be the only meaningful factor in the equation.

Maybe if we aired adds about how to prevent drug use instead of demonizing the drugs and users we could do just that prevent the use, then no more users.

I have a mixed opinion about allowing drug use. If the drugs were regulated like you can only take hallucinogens in a safe controlled environment then yes. The only problem is when they use them to cope with problems like chain smoking when stressed or drinking when depressed. If we allowed people to hurt themselves when under physiological distress then suicide would be legal. Addicts get as high as they can but a casual user does it for extra stimulation. (think parties)
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Rederic
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Rederic »

Every government in the world is losing the " War Against Drugs". It's been proved that our present method doesn't work. Drug taking destroys families, feeds crime, kills users & costs society billions. I think it's time for our politicians to grow some testicles & try a different approach.
Religion is at its best when it makes us ask hard questions of ourselves.
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Misty
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Misty »

Spiral Out wrote:
Greta wrote:What if we treated people like adults and gave them real information?
What if we explained the reality of using drugs and let them make their own decisions? This of course would mean that they must take full responsibility for any medical costs attributable to their drug use. I'm ok with that.

I'm not against people using drugs, as long as they take full responsibility for their decision to do so. What I'm against is the ignorant scapegoating of drug suppliers in favor of treating drug users as innocent victims.

Now with a proposal for a law to hold the suppliers criminally liable for the deaths of the users in the capacity of murder, it's gone over the edge of reason. Instead of targeting the real problem, they're gaming up the heat on the scapegoats. That will have absolutely no effect on the problem.

It's a war on sensibility, not on drugs.
Many get hooked while still children and have no way to fight nor pay for their addition, by the way, usually caused by adults.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

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Spiral Out
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Spiral Out »

Misty wrote:Many get hooked while still children and have no way to fight nor pay for their addition, by the way, usually caused by adults.
Those are the words of an enabler. Excusatory rationalization. This is why the problem persists.
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Sy Borg
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Sy Borg »

Chriscross wrote:I'm not trying to do away with responsibility but, ask what is the real problem. If a machine caught fire would it be the problem? Would it be the broken piece inside the machine. Maybe the guy that didn't oil it? The company that didn't train the employee? To me there are all problems but, can we say that any of them would have happened if earlier problems had been addressed and dealt with? I just don't like your argument (my opinion) because you place the blame on the user (also subjective) and, determine them to be the only meaningful factor in the equation.

Maybe if we aired adds about how to prevent drug use instead of demonizing the drugs and users we could do just that prevent the use, then no more users.

I have a mixed opinion about allowing drug use. If the drugs were regulated like you can only take hallucinogens in a safe controlled environment then yes. The only problem is when they use them to cope with problems like chain smoking when stressed or drinking when depressed. If we allowed people to hurt themselves when under physiological distress then suicide would be legal. Addicts get as high as they can but a casual user does it for extra stimulation. (think parties)
More than focusing on prevention I think society needs to pay attention to the prevalence of intoxicant use in both human history and the animal kingdom. Why are living things so attracted to taking drugs? If it's taken as a given that humans and other animals seek to use drugs to alter consciousness, then surely it's just a matter of determining the difference between use and abuse and the dynamics that precede transition from use to abuse?

Sadly, our society at a political level remains in denial with a simplistic "drugs = bad" equation, yet something about intoxication obviously agrees with us. Humans spend their lives programming themselves (resolutions) and being programmed (influences). The algorithms we choose determine whether we thrive, survive or fall. Altered states of consciousness expose people to new ways of thinking, gaining insights that can benefit them and others in the future. In other words, we can expose ourselves to new algorithms and use them to our advantage with use, as opposed to abuse.

Whatever, I expect drugs to become obsolete in the future, with their benefits obtained through direct stimulation of brain parts, and in precise doses to ensure healthfulness.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Subatomic God
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

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I believe you're underestimating the stimulation of desire, such as dangling a fresh piece of meat over a pit of people that have not eaten for days. Drugs are a part of that instinctive drive, which is something you have to take into serious consideration. Now I know many of us like to pretend we're always on-point and that we think clearly, but that's simply not the case. We're prone to chemical fissures and off-setting of moods -- we're also prone to issues, insecurities and ignorance. None of us aren't without tension; none of us aren't keeping ourselves from holding our animal back. Everyone has to keep themselves in check, but there are specific things in life that are making it difficult for us to keep us back, such as drugs, sexual influences, materialistic vanity, etc. Not to mention that the world we live in leaves us with a bad impression before we're caught up in this voracious cycle, and so when we've fallen into the abyss of temptation, we don't have a world to come back to because we left it as we hated it. Therefore everyone is a victim no matter how barbaric they appear; everyone that resorts to such inhumanity is a victim to something we all have the potential and responsibility to put an end to. Instead of blaming the users, or the abusers -- blame the system, and what fuels the system; it's not the users and abusers, it's the incentive within them.
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Sy Borg
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Sy Borg »

Subatomic God wrote:I believe you're underestimating the stimulation of desire, such as dangling a fresh piece of meat over a pit of people that have not eaten for days. Drugs are a part of that instinctive drive, which is something you have to take into serious consideration. Now I know many of us like to pretend we're always on-point and that we think clearly, but that's simply not the case. We're prone to chemical fissures and off-setting of moods -- we're also prone to issues, insecurities and ignorance. None of us aren't without tension; none of us aren't keeping ourselves from holding our animal back. Everyone has to keep themselves in check, but there are specific things in life that are making it difficult for us to keep us back, such as drugs, sexual influences, materialistic vanity, etc. Not to mention that the world we live in leaves us with a bad impression before we're caught up in this voracious cycle, and so when we've fallen into the abyss of temptation, we don't have a world to come back to because we left it as we hated it. Therefore everyone is a victim no matter how barbaric they appear; everyone that resorts to such inhumanity is a victim to something we all have the potential and responsibility to put an end to. Instead of blaming the users, or the abusers -- blame the system, and what fuels the system; it's not the users and abusers, it's the incentive within them.
Are you saying that Spiral and I am underestimating the stimulation of desire with advocacy of more a less punitive approach? Just wondering who "you" is :)

As far as I can tell, the state has decided that it's okay for us to escape "reality" is all sorts of ways. We can buy and drink as much booze and cigarettes, soft drinks, coffee or guarana drinks and as we like. We can spend any amount of money on gambling. It's fine to work too hard or to not do exercise. It's fine to have destructive belief systems (as long as they don't fall under sedition laws).

In each these areas we are given freedom to use or abuse as we wish. Yet some how cannabis, which has a zero death-by-overdose rate is deemed immoral and painted as more dangerous than any of the above-mentioned proven killers.

This is not a argument to increase controls but to relax them. Treat people like adults and they might surprise you by behaving like adults. Our current attitude towards everything apart from a subset of drugs is caveat emptor, which seems like a fair enough system, especially if we let people freely exchange real information other than bland, government sanctioned, bare bones information.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Subatomic God
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Subatomic God »

Greta wrote: Are you saying that Spiral and I am underestimating the stimulation of desire with advocacy of more a less punitive approach? Just wondering who "you" is :)
Spiral Out.
Yet some how cannabis, which has a zero death-by-overdose rate is deemed immoral and painted as more dangerous than any of the above-mentioned proven killers.
I'm not arguing about the taxation dilemma between the government and cannabis. I, too, believe (not necessarily encouraging it, but enough to understand) that if all potentially dangerous drugs are legal, whereas cannabis isn't -- knowing that the only possible reason behind it being the government cannot tax it -- the only logical explanation behind it is none. There's zero consensus to support the illegality of cannabis.
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Spiral Out
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Re: What Is It Really A War Against?

Post by Spiral Out »

Subatomic God wrote:I, too, believe (not necessarily encouraging it, but enough to understand) that if all potentially dangerous drugs are legal, whereas cannabis isn't -- knowing that the only possible reason behind it being the government cannot tax it -- the only logical explanation behind it is none. There's zero consensus to support the illegality of cannabis.
That's what makes the law regarding the "drug induced death" murder charges of the person selling weed even more absurd and irresponsible. Everyone knows and understands that cannabis doesn't kill like heroin and crack. But the government cannot accept that because of the nature of a system such as the "justice system".

We all know how the law works. If someone dies and if there's any cannabis in the person's system then the law will allow for the person who sold them the weed to be brought up on murder charges. This is how the "justice system" operates.

There can be no justice within any predefined system.

The bottom line is that, for certain people within the system, there's big money to be made in all of this.
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