"Love Trumps Hate"

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
User avatar
1stworldview
New Trial Member
Posts: 1
Joined: July 17th, 2014, 8:21 am

"Love Trumps Hate"

Post by 1stworldview »

It's more than a little ironic that a guy as hardline on immigration as Donald Trump has been surrounded by immigrants his entire life, starting from the very beginning.

"My mother was born in Scotland, in the Hebrides, in Stornoway, so that's serious Scotland. And she was a great woman," Trump said in a 2010 documentary. "Whenever anything was on about, ceremonial about the Queen she could sit at the television and just watch it. She had great respect for the Queen and for everything (she) represents"

In 1930, an 18-year-old Mary MacLeod sailed for America from Glasgow on the S.S. Transylvania, according to a copy of the ship's passenger list on Ancestrycom. MacLeod arrived in New York and married Fred `Trump, the son of German immigrants himself.

"My grandfather Frederick Trump came to the United States in 1885. He joined the great gold rush and instead of gold he decided to open up some hotels in Alaska. He did fantastically well. He loved this country, likewise my father and now me," Trump said in a taped message for a German-American pride parade a few years ago.


But on the campaign trail, Trump sounds more like a nativist than the son and grandson of immigrants.

Trump told a meeting of conservative activists last year that the nation's 11 million undocumented immigrants would never vote Republican.

"You'd better be smart and you'd better be tough," Trump said. "They're taking your jobs, and you'd better be careful."

It's tough rhetoric that comes with a twist. Trump's current wife is an immigrant herself.

Melania Trump moved to New York about 20 years ago. The Slovenian born model now has her own jewelry and caviar-cream skincare lines. She married Trump in 2005 in a fairytale wedding that included a wedding gown reported to cost $100,000. And the next year, she became a citizen -- a decade after arriving in America.

"She went through a long process to become a citizen. It was very tough," Trump told CNN recently, adding that Melania agrees with his immigration position. "When she got it, she was very proud of it. She came from Europe, and she was very, very proud of it. And she thinks it's a beautiful process when it works."

And of course, Trump's first wife, Ivana, was an immigrant too. Born in Czechoslovakia, she married an Austrian ski instructor in order to get a foreign passport to leave the communist country, her divorce lawyer has said.

She and Trump married in 1977, but she didn't become an American citizen for another 11 years.
Trump has said he supports legal immigration, but on the stump he seems to show little interest in the dreams of modern day immigrants. His immigration plan calls for foreign workers abroad to take a back seat to the domestically unemployed.

"You have a border, you have a country, and if you don't have a border what are we?" Trump asked before answering himself. "Just a -- just a nothing. A nothing."

Trump is not the only Presidential candidate with a foreign bride, Jeb Bush met his wife while in Leon, Mexico helping to build homes. León is a city in the Mexican state of Guanajuato. They married a few years later in Austin, Texas, and now live in Coral Gables, Florida.

It is Ironic while many candidates talk tough on immigrants coming to America, they seek, travel and marry women from other countries, Then bring them in on a K-1 Visas or what otherwise is called a fiancee visa. Kenneth Agee, Marketing Director of A Foreign Affair, a company that specializes in foreign bride match-making says, "We get politicians, celebrates and CEO's for all over the USA, many have strong anti immigration attitudes yet they do not look at bringing a foreign bride to the USA in the same way as other foreigners entering the US, Look at Fox News with it's strong anti Immigrant position yet FOX News CEO Rupert Murdoch is married to Wendi Deng Murdoch from Jinan, China, with a 38 year age difference. Its is natural for men to seek beautiful young women no matter where they are from, Just remember love trumps hate, no pun intended. " Kenneth would not give us names of the celebrates they have help find a foreign brides for citing company policy, but A Foreign Affair web sites states that each year the help thousands of men find love abroad.

Trump hasn't been shy about celebrating his immigrant roots. He served as the grand marshal of the annual German-American Steuben Parade in New York City. And he's reminisced about that day and how far his family had come from its European heritage.

Remembering the 1999 parade, Trump said, "We passed Trump Towers, 69 stories. I looked up and I said, 'This is a long way from Kallstadt,'" referring to the town in Germany where his grandfather was from.

But on the campaign trail, Trump is singing a very different immigrant song.

"We're building a wall. It's going to be a wall that is not -- nobody's going through my wall," Trump has said. "Trump builds walls. I build walls."
User avatar
Rederic
Posts: 589
Joined: May 30th, 2012, 8:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell
Location: South coast of England

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by Rederic »

If America votes Trump as President, it'll be the laughing stock of the world.
Religion is at its best when it makes us ask hard questions of ourselves.
It is at its worst when it deludes us into thinking we have all the answers for everybody else.
Archibald Macleish.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by LuckyR »

Rederic wrote:If America votes Trump as President, it'll be the laughing stock of the world.
Been there, did that...
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Spiral Out
Posts: 5014
Joined: June 26th, 2012, 10:22 am

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by Spiral Out »

Donald Trump will never be president of the United States. I can say that with utmost confidence. The American public is too smart for such thing.

Mr. Trump is appealing to the current and transitory fears of a majority who want to believe that someone can protect them in any way possible. However, Mr. Trump has no real answers, he only has placations.

He does not represent the American spirit.
Dedicated to the fine art of thinking.
Granth
Posts: 2084
Joined: July 20th, 2012, 11:56 pm

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by Granth »

Spiral Out wrote:Donald Trump will never be president of the United States. I can say that with utmost confidence. The American public is too smart for such thing.

Mr. Trump is appealing to the current and transitory fears of a majority who want to believe that someone can protect them in any way possible. However, Mr. Trump has no real answers, he only has placations.

He does not represent the American spirit.
I think 'American spirit' is under threat. I think it had been lucky so far anyway. Luck is running out. We luck in and luck out constantly regardless. Peaceful periods have always only existed in periods. You and I have been lucky to have existed through a reasonably longish period but it can end as it had begun........through terrible and inevitable conflict. We reflect that very same attraction to conflict in a forum such as this. Trump and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi sort of exist within all of us somehow weirdly. Can't honestly say I like it or dislike it. It all holds some fascination. I don't want to be fascinated by it but it appears I may have yet to properly define for myself what I truly want.........feeling like a puppet.

-- Updated January 12th, 2016, 2:13 am to add the following --

I am spiraling out of control.
Jklint
Posts: 1719
Joined: February 23rd, 2012, 3:06 am

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by Jklint »

Spiral Out wrote:He does not represent the American spirit.
Neither do many Americans. The "American spirit" usually turns itself on or off as required.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14995
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by Sy Borg »

"I build walls" is an odd thing to say for a descendant of German migrants from a district just 600kms SW of Berlin.

I agree with Granth about the (morbid?) interest in the games we play, as cynicism within and outside of governments and boardrooms continues to grow. Trump is playing on people's fears as politicians have always done. Animal survival instincts have "gifted" us with this persistent negative bias because, in evolutionary terms, the ramifications of missing opportunities tends to be less than those of missing threats.

So politicians focus more on threats than opportunities, and a politician with weak policy skills will especially focus on the negative. If Trump was confident that he could sell the electorate his tax plans, which appear to be his main policy aside from immigration and guns, then why the xenophobic games? Negative bias.

It's hard to imagine a time in the future when politics won't be rife with manipulation and negativity. It appears to have always been that way thanks to our nature.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
Jklint
Posts: 1719
Joined: February 23rd, 2012, 3:06 am

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by Jklint »

Greta wrote:"I build walls" is an odd thing to say for a descendant of German migrants from a district just 600kms SW of Berlin.
Not to be picky but there is difference between migrants and immigrants. The two terms can be easily confused but Trump's grandfather was clearly an immigrant!
Differences in meaning:

While immigration refers to relocation to a country, migration refers to the movement from one region to another - either within a country or across national borders. For example,

There was a migration of Jews from Europe to various parts of the world.
Albert Einstein immigrated to the United States.
Kashmiri pundits are being forced to migrate from Kashmir to other parts of India.

While immigration usually refers to an individual or a family, migration refers to the movement of a much larger population.
While immigration refers to people, the word migration can also be used in the context of animals and birds.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14995
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by Sy Borg »

Thanks JK. I'd never given it a thought. I'll remember it now ... IMternational :)
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
User avatar
Aristocles
Premium Member
Posts: 508
Joined: April 20th, 2015, 8:15 am

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by Aristocles »

In the 2014 documentary "The Forecaster" (now very hard to obtain), Martin Armstrong predicts a candidate much like Trumps will win the coming election of the USA.
User avatar
Scribbler60
Posts: 177
Joined: December 17th, 2015, 11:48 am

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by Scribbler60 »

Spiral Out wrote:Donald Trump will never be president of the United States. I can say that with utmost confidence. The American public is too smart for such thing.

Mr. Trump is appealing to the current and transitory fears of a majority who want to believe that someone can protect them in any way possible. However, Mr. Trump has no real answers, he only has placations.

He does not represent the American spirit.
Sadly, I think you're incorrect in your assessment of the American spirit.

You're right, of course, that Trump has no real answers but he is very good - actually, the entire right-wing is very good - at stirring up discontent, hate and fear. And those are fundamental, primary drivers which are extremely effective at getting large groups of people to act irrationally.

Recently there was a poll (I think it was Fox) that showed that in a general election, Trump could take the White House. Shortly after that, the stock market tanked.

Coincidence?

-- Updated January 18th, 2016, 2:54 pm to add the following --
Aristocles wrote:In the 2014 documentary "The Forecaster" (now very hard to obtain), Martin Armstrong predicts a candidate much like Trumps will win the coming election of the USA.
I second this. This documentary is wonderfully done and well worth searching out. I'm not sure I agree with everything Armstrong says but the doc makes a compelling case.

Here's the trailer:
User avatar
Ormond
Posts: 932
Joined: December 30th, 2015, 8:14 pm

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by Ormond »

Trump is not running for President, because he is intelligent enough to know he can't be elected. Trump is running to inflate his brand, and for political influence.

How do you get political influence? By helping those who win.

Whose going to win? Most likely Hillary Clinton.

How do you help Hillary Clinton? By being a billionaire buffoon bozo running for the Republican nomination, dividing the Republican electorate, and making the Republican Party look like a Saturday morning cartoon show. Oh, and by seriously alienating Hispanics, a key demographic the Republicans simply must win over to their side if they want to have any chance of remaining a national party.

Please recall how Bill Clinton got elected. Another wacko named Ross Perot split the Republican vote, handing the election to Clinton. I think Clinton is trying to engineer a repeat performance of that victory.

My guess is that Bill Clinton and Donald Trump crafted this strategy over drinks some time ago, and that Trump will soon have a cozy seat at the table at the highest levels of the United States government. That's what you shoot for if you're unelectable.

Don't underestimate Bill Clinton's sterling intelligence and political craftiness. That whole small town okie bubba persona he projects is just a cover story which allows him to manipulate others, while at the same time helping those he is manipulating feel they are superior to him. Smart, smart, smart.

-- Updated January 27th, 2016, 10:40 am to add the following --

Example: Those of you old enough might remember the sixties TV show All In The Family. If you saw the show you'll recall Edith Bunker, played by Jean Stapleton. She was so incredibly talented at playing the ditzy dingbat wife, that viewers probably never realized she was the smartest person on the set. That's the kind of smarts Bill Clinton has mastered, the kind that makes him look like a lovable huggy-doll, while he's lying to everyone he can get his hands on. He's still very popular, even though he very publicly debased the office we gave him in the most blatant manner. Only really smart people can pull off things like that.

Don't assume that Bill Clinton has retired from the game.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
User avatar
Aristocles
Premium Member
Posts: 508
Joined: April 20th, 2015, 8:15 am

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by Aristocles »

Yes, Hillary actually beat Barrack in the primary but they appear to have struck a deal in exchange for his support for her in the 2016 election and her previous job as secretry of state.

I appreciate the Forecaster documentary citing. It is especially interesting as the film details how Putin gained office so quickly.

Of related documentaries to US presidential corruption are "Ethos" and the "Dark Legacy (hard to obtain since Jeb Bush's campaign began)."

The military industrial complex, from at least Eisenhower's warning to it becoming so powerful with Reagan, is important to note. The Bush legacy, from Prescott until now, is exponentially unconscionable. If Jeb mysteriously gains the primary from the republican party, then I will become a full-time conspiracy theorist and giving up my philosphy freelancing here...

I have been wrong in predicting every US presidential election since Clinton defeated Bush (with the one exception of Obama winning his second term). Having a better idea of how it mostly comes down to nitty-gritty individual state manipulations more than I previously appreciated, I still cannot tell if it will be Hillary or Donald "winning" the hot seat, but I am starting to lean on the idea Trump is there to assist in Hillary's election. Hillary has put more effort, not all a good, into becoming a future president of the United States than any candidate I can recall...

-- Updated February 11th, 2016, 6:20 am to add the following --

Bernie Sanders too would fit the prediction of the Forcaster. Bernie appears to likewise represent a love Trumps hate...
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by Steve3007 »

The central proposition in the OP appears to be that Trump is hypocritical about immigration.

I think this is just a special case of the larger character of the interesting Trump phenomenon. It's not so much that he's hypocritical. It's more than that. He seems to be seeking to demonstrate that you can saying absolutely anything you like, including things that contradict other things you've said or things that are literally nonsense, as long as it's not what "The Establishment" would say. If "The Establishment" engages in debates and constructs arguments to attempt to defend their propositions, then saying random mad things and refusing to defend them in anything that could be called debate is going to be a vote winner.

The enduring popularity of the apparent outsider in US politics presumably stems ultimately from the anti-establishment foundations of the country itself. Reagan was good at it. Trump is a true philosopher in that he has taken it to its reductio ad absurdum. As he himself has said, he could shoot somebody dead on the streets of New York City and not lose any popularity. (Maybe). "The Establishment doesn't shoot people dead on the streets of NYC. They do it sneakily and dishonestly. At least Trump is honest about it." might be a possible reaction.

The Establishment is currently represented by president Obama, who does the deep-thinking option-weighing reasoned-argument thing. Once Trump is elected president and becomes The Establishment, the deep-thinking reasoned-argument shtick will become anti-establishment, and therefore popular, again.
Opinionator
Posts: 7
Joined: December 16th, 2014, 4:36 pm

Re: "Love Trumps Hate"

Post by Opinionator »

Trump has defied logic and reason thus far. I wouldn't count out the possibility that he wins. This is especially true if ISIS keeps acting up. The more people feel fear the more they are willing to turn to leaders who they perceive as strong. In this case they would be turning to a fascist in the making.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021