Should the UK leave the European Union?

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Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » July 14th, 2016, 1:17 am

Apparently, now he's foreign secretary, Boris has apologized for calling president Obama "a part Kenyan with an ancestral dislike of the British Empire".

But I guess those words do give an insight into what an arrogant old unreconstructed imperialist lurks beneath that bubbly, clown-like exterior. Maybe making him foreign secretary, so he has to go out into the world and meet all the various people he's insulted, is a kind of punishment. Perhaps he committed political suicide and is now on his way to political hell!

-- Updated Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:38 am to add the following --
And if you can be a successful Mayor of London, then thats a pretty good CV! He has pedigree.
Was he any good as London Mayor? Sure he introduced the "Boris bikes", but that's not exactly rocket science. And he bought some second-hand water cannons that didn't work from some geezer down the pub (or something like that).

But apart from bikes and water cannons, what has Boris ever done for us?

Grunth
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Grunth » July 14th, 2016, 4:17 am

Steve3007 wrote:Apparently, now he's foreign secretary, Boris has apologized for calling president Obama "a part Kenyan with an ancestral dislike of the British Empire".

I think he was being particularly polite to Obama there.

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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » July 14th, 2016, 6:13 am

Supine:
Sisi has protected the Coptic Christians and they seem to by and large love him.
Cool. So, going back to the "neighbourhood" theme, if I was a Coptic Christian living in the Coptic Christian neighbourhood, I'd presumably love him. If I was a journalist who wanted to be able to report events in Egypt without having to toe the government line and lived in the rebellious journalists neighbourhood, I'd probably be less keen.

But I guess the observation that you can't please all of the people all of the time is not exactly a new one.

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Lucylu
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Lucylu » July 14th, 2016, 6:32 am

Steve3007 wrote:But apart from bikes and water cannons, what has Boris ever done for us?
Well, he has a lot of good qualities:

1. He is 'brand Boris'. Not many people are known globally by just their first name. He can carry himself on the world stage.

2. Arguably, it was his support of the Brexit campaign that really gave it weight, and affected the outcome. If that is believed then he has enormous power to influence others.

3. He obviously has a gift for publicity and self publicity - if he can turn that in to publicity for Britain with overseas investors then he could do a lot of good.

4. He has enormous capacity to create good mood and laughter - not something that many politicians have. He turned events such as being caught short, hanging from a zipwire in to a triumph, instead of what would have been deeply humiliating to many political careers. And wit is important - as we saw yesterday as many of David Cameron's cabinet remarked on his command of the despatch box, his wit and his humour. Foreign secretary is typically thought of as a sensitive role, but maybe it doesn't have to be quite so serious.

This is Boris' chance to put his money where his mouth is. Theresa May is obviously choosing to put prominent Brexit campaigners in to her cabinet, to respect the people's decision (although I was happy to see the back of Michael Gove after his recent behaviour!) so 'the proof will be in the pudding'. You're right that he has certainly put his career on the line.
Steve3007 wrote:Apparently, now he's foreign secretary, Boris has apologized for calling president Obama "a part Kenyan with an ancestral dislike of the British Empire".
Did he? I cant find that?

He said last night that he is "very humbled" by this opportunity and when asked about whether he needs to apologize to Obama, he simply side-stepped this saying that "The US will be at the front of the queue", which I thought was quite a good response. Obama was pretty rude himself I think, saying we'd be at the back.

Boris will need to learn to be more considered in his public speaking, like in his post referendum speech. His comfort with the media, and public speaking can lead to him being too relaxed and forgetting who he's talking to, I think. I hope that now, with a more important role, Boris simply wont have time to mouth off in the same way he has in the past and perhaps wont be quite so bored. I hope he does well.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell

Grunth
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Grunth » July 14th, 2016, 7:10 am

Lucylu wrote:

Boris will need to learn to be more considered in his public speaking, like in his post referendum speech. His comfort with the media, and public speaking can lead to him being too relaxed and forgetting who he's talking to, I think.
Who in the US will he be talking to after November, do you think?

-- Updated July 15th, 2016, 12:14 am to add the following --

Do you pseudo politicos actually believe that what the current political leaders say is transparently true?

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Ormond
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Ormond » July 14th, 2016, 8:18 am

Steve3007 wrote:Bringing it back to reality:


An attempt you have successfully foiled...
Steve3007 wrote:What do you think of our general policy towards the current leadership of Egypt and the pragmatic view we appear to be taking towards their removal of the democratically elected Muslim Brotherhood government, and prosecution of Mohamed Morsi?
Well, this is a complex question. We should take our time and analyze it carefully, considering all sides of the issue, keeping in mind the historical precedents and the influence of local culture, weighing the pros and the cons, looking at the question from all sides, seeing the arguments on one vs. the other hand, reflecting upon the larger social realities involved, referencing the great thinkers on the subject without discarding the man in the street, trying to understand why people do the things they do, while forming tentative theories, but not conclusions that can be further analyzed with the benefit of the additional information we are always waiting for and....

Oh, wait. Hang on a sec.

Breaking news, this just in from the BBC.

Apparently Sisi has just killed the last remaining person in Egypt.

Ok, never mind, cancel the above, problem solved.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.

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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » July 14th, 2016, 8:41 am

Ormond:

You've successfully re-made (using sarcasm) a point that you'd already made. That sometimes if you think about a problem too much you get overtaken by events and the thinking becomes irrelevant. Great. That fact is definitely established.

So, let's try not to make that mistake and just dive in with a decision.

I say: current policy of engagement with the current Egyptian government is the right way to go. So carry on.

You?

-- Updated Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:07 pm to add the following --

Quick, Mr President, I need a decision. People are dying. Invade or engage?

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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Wilson » July 14th, 2016, 11:58 am

Steve, I likewise await Ormond's response on Egypt.

And Ormond, I ask again, should we invade Zimbabwe? That guy has destroyed the country.

And the Sudan? And North Korea? And Crimea? And ... and .... and ....


Come on, be a man. Don't wimp out and hide behind changing the subject.

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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Lucylu » July 14th, 2016, 1:04 pm

Grunth wrote: Do you pseudo politicos actually believe that what the current political leaders say is transparently true?
'Pseudo politicos'? Unlike you I suppose, who is not just interested in politics but holds real weight in parliament? Pray tell?

Of course, no one knows whats going to happen-this is new territory- but there is no use being negative and cynical about it.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell

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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » July 14th, 2016, 3:15 pm

Lucylu:
I agree that Boris has the kind of relaxed self-confidence that makes him a naturally likable entertainer, certainly when you compare him to the stilted, self-conscious attempts at humour of most politicians. Anyway it's all good fun and the media are clearly hugely enjoying it. I like the map the Independent has created of all the countries he's supposedly offended.

-- Updated Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:28 pm to add the following --

I also agree that David Cameron has quite good wit and comic timing, for a politician. Do you remember a few days ago when he welcomed a new Labour MP to the house and quipped that she should leave her mobile phone switched on because she might be in the shadow cabinet before the end of the day? I actually laughed at that one. It's the way he tells them. I guess the secret of being a good comedian is, largely, self-confidence. If you look nervous people don't laugh. Unless looking nervous is part of the act. So being educated at Eton is probably a good preparation for a career on the stand-up circuit.

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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Ormond » July 14th, 2016, 6:57 pm

Wilson wrote:Steve, I likewise await Ormond's response on Egypt.
Sorry, I had to make a pit stop first in my response on Steve. :lol:

You guys should be able to figure out my reasoning by now, but ok, here's some more spoon feeding of it.

If we were going to invade anywhere right now it should be Syria, because that's where the most carnage is underway. It wouldn't make sense to invade Egypt now when Syria is almost right next door and experiencing far more violence. For now, we should talk to the Egyptian government, but not send them money. Let their fellow despots the Saudis foot that bill.

Look at Iraq guys. Without the 2003 invasion the choices in Iraq right now would be Saddam, the Islamic State types, or Arab spring inspired chaos like in Syria. Instead there is a half way decent government that more or less represents most of the population. It's not attacking it's neighbors. It's not oppressing the population in a major way. It's pushing out ISIS bit by bit. It's gradually becoming more stable. It's far from a perfect government, but given the standards of the region, it's not bad. You can thank George Bush and Tony Blair for that. But of course you won't.

Wilson, rather than go down the list of every trouble spot in the world, I'll repeat the general principle. We should fight every despot in the world where we can. We should pick them off one by one where the opportunity presents itself. Saddam made himself vulnerable, we took him down. Assad made himself vulnerable, should have done the same with him. ISIS retreating in the face of a coalition of nations willing to act, good, keep acting until we've killed them all.

Guys, all I'm arguing for is the very same thing you would demand in your own neighborhood. The price tag for civilization is an ongoing struggle against the uncivilized, both locally and globally.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.

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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Grunth » July 14th, 2016, 7:02 pm

Lucylu wrote:
Grunth wrote: Do you pseudo politicos actually believe that what the current political leaders say is transparently true?
'Pseudo politicos'? Unlike you I suppose, who is not just interested in politics but holds real weight in parliament? Pray tell?

Of course, no one knows whats going to happen-this is new territory- but there is no use being negative and cynical about it.
You avoided the questions, not unlike Loretta Lynch before congress a couple of days ago or Lois Lerner pleading the 5th several times when questioned over the IRS scandal (within which only replublican supporters were targeted for review)?

Do you actually think Obama has been honest or is honest? Did you watch and listen to Hillary Clinton before congress over the private servers saga? Did you listen to FBI director Comey before congress a week ago?
.
All this was under Obama and would make Nixon seem like a saint.

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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Wilson » July 14th, 2016, 7:12 pm

Ormond wrote: Wilson, rather than go down the list of every trouble spot in the world, I'll repeat the general principle. We should fight every despot in the world where we can. We should pick them off one by one where the opportunity presents itself. Saddam made himself vulnerable, we took him down. Assad made himself vulnerable, should have done the same with him. ISIS retreating in the face of a coalition of nations willing to act, good, keep acting until we've killed them all.
Picking them off one by one would mean, I take it, that we would be perpetually at war. Because we'll never run out of nasty dictators. And we will have to keep troops in each country to make sure it doesn't regress. Except, what if a nation, through free elections, chooses a military strongman to lead them, and he becomes another in an unending line of nasty dictators, with oppression of the opposition. The trouble with your approach, Ormond, is that we would never be at peace, our military expenditures would skyrocket, we'd have to double our armed forces, and half the time the result wouldn't be much better than what we were trying to fix. Once again, you're an ideologue with good intentions but completely unrealistic and incredibly expensive ideas.

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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Grunth » July 14th, 2016, 8:36 pm

Under Obama, Hillary Clinton, as a government employee, is above the law. Any other government employee, or any other citizen of the United States, is not.
Comey himself gave us some sense of that, when he said, “To be clear, this is not to suggest that in similar circumstances, a person who engaged in this activity would face no consequences. To the contrary, those individuals are often subject to security or administrative sanctions. But that is not what we are deciding now.”

-- Updated July 15th, 2016, 1:38 pm to add the following --

Nup. I can't follow youtube posting instructions. Some measure of my cognitive limitations, I guess.

-- Updated July 15th, 2016, 1:42 pm to add the following --
Under Obama, Hillary Clinton, as a government employee, is above the law. Any other government employee, or any other citizen of the United States, is not.
Comey himself gave us some sense of that, when he said, “To be clear, this is not to suggest that in similar circumstances, a person who engaged in this activity would face no consequences. To the contrary, those individuals are often subject to security or administrative sanctions. But that is not what we are deciding now.”

-- Updated July 15th, 2016, 1:42 pm to add the following --

Phew!

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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Supine » July 14th, 2016, 11:36 pm

Grunth, had Hilary been working in the private sector and broke security protocol repeatedly for the corporation she was working for, I'm pretty sure she would have stood a good chance at getting fired. If she wasn't fired it might adversely affect the amount of time it would take for her to get promoted up the company ladder. It's interesting she'll likely become US President, or to put it another way get promoted up the Government ladder. :lol: I had to stand as an observer in a court martial in the Marine Corps for a fellow Corporal being tried for lying over opening a gate late, over posting a sentry on time to open the gate (one of several at the small base). He was found guilty and the results wasn't a slowing of promotion but rather a demotion. He lost a rank. And that was just over a gate that officers, enlisted, and civilians drove through. I think it was only opened 10 minutes late or something like that. :lol:

Although Hilary may not have done anything different than what Republicans in her position would or have done with emailed information. To my eyes each party lets slide what their own party members do and jump out of proportions at what members of the opposite party do even if its the exact same thing members of their party do.

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