Should the UK leave the European Union?

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Togo1
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Togo1 » August 23rd, 2016, 12:40 pm

Belinda wrote:I believe that all parties including ISIS should have talks to come to an agreement about humanitarian relief corridors. ASAP
Sensible suggestion. However, there are some obstacles.
-Some of that humanitarian relief would come from ISIS, and all sides are unlikely to trust each other not to include weapons.
-Allowing civillians to live compartively normal lives in each other's areas is directly contrary to the war aims of all sides.

I think what's needed is a perception of parity in the ability of each side to provide humanitarian relief without an agreement. In other words, unless we can demontrate an ability to help people that matches that of ISIS, then they don't have an incentive to agree not to shoot the convoys. This may involve an agressive push to deliver relief without agreement, which is hard without troops on the ground. But not impossible. It may end up being a military problem after all.

Certainly it would require close cooperation with Turkey, which may have political implications.

-- Updated August 24th, 2016, 9:50 am to add the following --

Latest news - Turkey have intervened to stop their chosen target group, the Kurds, from establishing themselves.

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Lucylu
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Lucylu » August 30th, 2016, 2:25 pm

Togo1 wrote:Latest news - Turkey have intervened to stop their chosen target group, the Kurds, from establishing themselves.
I heard an expert (Professor Gerges) from LSE talking on the news about the situation in Syria and he said that the crisis continues expressly because so many different external parties are involved.

'Too many cooks' basically. If the international community had been more organized and acted as one then it would be over by now. So, the Syrian people are paying the price for our collective incompetence.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell

Dolphin42
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Dolphin42 » November 20th, 2016, 5:17 pm

Nigel Farage says he's going to try again to be elected Member of Parliament for Thanet South, here in the east of England, and he says this time he's going to get his friend Donald to help him out! Perhaps we'll get a visit! It's like one of those weird crossover episodes of two separate comedy shows. The Simpsons and Family Guy, or something. I'm starting to warm to this new crazy western world we're building for ourselves. It's a lot of fun.

Grunth
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Grunth » December 5th, 2016, 8:01 pm


Togo1
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Togo1 » December 5th, 2016, 8:24 pm

This is my consituency.

Can you let me know the source of this? Because I've heard the full version, and this has been heavily edited to make the Lib Dem sound worse.

-- Updated December 5th, 2016, 8:32 pm to add the following --

Ok, just gone over it again. They've removed some of the conflicting arguements that the Talk Radio host introduced, that turned out not to be true. They're removed some of Sarah's original arguments, and added a lot of Errs and silences that weren't in the original. You can tell where all her 'err' and 'you know' sound identical to each other (because they've been copied) rather than matching the rest of the speech.

This is dishonest political propeganda, please try and find a more reliable source.

Which is weird, because, Sarah didn't sound particularly good in the original. She's only just become an MP for the first time, she's been in politics less than two years, and catching her out isn't all that hard. But I guess the had to edit it because they said things that weren't true in the original, and Sarah, although she didn't sound particular good, was actually right in what she said.

Grunth
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Grunth » December 5th, 2016, 11:13 pm

Togo1 wrote:This is my consituency.

Can you let me know the source of this? Because I've heard the full version, and this has been heavily edited to make the Lib Dem sound worse.

-- Updated December 5th, 2016, 8:32 pm to add the following --

Ok, just gone over it again. They've removed some of the conflicting arguements that the Talk Radio host introduced, that turned out not to be true. They're removed some of Sarah's original arguments, and added a lot of Errs and silences that weren't in the original. You can tell where all her 'err' and 'you know' sound identical to each other (because they've been copied) rather than matching the rest of the speech.

This is dishonest political propeganda, please try and find a more reliable source.

Which is weird, because, Sarah didn't sound particularly good in the original. She's only just become an MP for the first time, she's been in politics less than two years, and catching her out isn't all that hard. But I guess the had to edit it because they said things that weren't true in the original, and Sarah, although she didn't sound particular good, was actually right in what she said.
Ok, well that is your analysis of the full version. I will try to find it myself and see if I agree. If you have a link at your disposal feel free to post it to here.

-- Updated December 6th, 2016, 4:24 pm to add the following --
Togo1 wrote:This is my consituency.

Can you let me know the source of this? Because I've heard the full version, and this has been heavily edited to make the Lib Dem sound worse.
I think the propaganda is yours. The full version I found was only 30 seconds longer and those 30 seconds was the interviewer speaking after Sarah Olney cut it short.

So if you have a 'fuller' version other than this next one, then surely post it here. If you do not, then maybe you were merely lying. Can we see what you have?

Burning ghost
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Burning ghost » December 5th, 2016, 11:39 pm

Maybe a liar?

Maybe you rape children?

Maybe I like to feast on monkey penis?

Maybe ... ?
AKA badgerjelly

Grunth
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Grunth » December 5th, 2016, 11:42 pm

Burning ghost wrote:Maybe a liar?

Maybe you rape children?

Maybe I like to feast on monkey penis?

Maybe ... ?
I'm waiting for the ''full version".

The "maybe" could be dropped in my next post on this topic. Let us see.

Dolphin42
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Dolphin42 » December 6th, 2016, 3:11 am

Good interview from Sarah Olney there. I like the way she abruptly ended it. Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen.

As she pithily pointed out, we voted to leave but didn't vote for a destination, with the resultant mess that's starting to unfold now, during which all the government can say is meaningless tautologies like "Brexit means Brexit" as they scramble to retrospectively create something that people could have voted about. As she also pointed out, the Leave campaign couldn't (and still can't) clarify even basic things like whether we're going to leave the Single market. They couldn't give the voters anything (that was actually true) to vote on. The result was that most people's votes were based on a whole host of things, from protests about City fat-cat commodities traders (those nasty London types) to laments at the loss of heavy industry, most of which were unrelated to the EU. As the interviewer pointed out, in the absence of other information, it was left for the Remain campaign to speculate that we would leave the single market in an attempt to do what the Leave campaign couldn't do: give people something concrete, and genuine (as opposed to the 350 million pound lie) to actually vote about.

We're now left with the amusing situation whereby we might end up paying for access to that market. I think we'd all have to admit that would be funny. I wonder if all those buses with the "Leave the EU and save 350 million pounds a week" slogans on the side have been painted over yet. As a comedian pointed out the other day, it's a sad world when you can't even trust what you read written on the side of a bus.

Grunth
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Grunth » December 6th, 2016, 3:26 am

Dolphin42 wrote:Good interview from Sarah Olney there. I like the way she abruptly ended it. Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen. .
If that means running away when it gets uncomfortable and inconvenient, then for those that see a complete lack of integrity as a virtue you would be correct. It is right to be wrong when you can't tell the difference as it is for ignorance to be bliss.

Dolphin42
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Dolphin42 » December 6th, 2016, 3:28 am

I've heard that she also refers to Daesh as ISIL. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Grunth
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Grunth » December 6th, 2016, 3:31 am

Dolphin42 wrote:I've heard that she also refers to Daesh as ISIL. :lol: :lol: :lol:
She wouldn't know an isil from her arsil.

Dolphin42
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Dolphin42 » December 6th, 2016, 3:44 am

But I bet she doesn't refer to her opponents as c**ts because she doesn't know what the word "Levant" means.

Anyhoo, perhaps she should have just asked for the interviewer's microphone to be turned off. That would have been funnier.

Grunth
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Grunth » December 7th, 2016, 4:18 am

Togo1 wrote:This is my consituency.

Can you let me know the source of this? Because I've heard the full version, and this has been heavily edited to make the Lib Dem sound worse.

Ahem! You lied there, Togo1.

Burning ghost
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Burning ghost » December 7th, 2016, 5:06 am

How about this for a question ...

If the government tables a deal to stay in the single market and makes a trade off for partial immigration control yet still leave the EU would those who voted for the Brexit want to vote on the actual deal proposed by the government?

Can they force an actual democracy into effect like they have in Switzerland?

If the government tables a deal that says we have complete control over our borders regardless I expect the Brexit voters would be okay with this.

It would be a much better idea that we hold to the vote and then give the public more influence in political decisions. If the shape of the deal is decided bybthe public this gives a much higher incentive for the government to do its job and tell us truthfully what options we have.

I should state I was for staying in the EU and having a future referendum. I think the idea of a community of nations is a good one as long as they are independent communities acting together. This can only work if each country is equal though and they are not.

My fear has been about the UK being left unable to compete for an extended period of time. Now it looks like Italy may pull out too it may help loosen the grip of EU and allow friendlier and more reasonable negotiations. The biggest mistake of the EU was the Euro imo. It makes sense for nations on relatively equal footing to group together. This though also keeps the lesser nations at a disadvantage unless the geeater nations subsidise them. The EU should be a group of weaker nations competing together against stronger nations surely? For the face of Europe I don't thunk the major powers (Germany, UK and France) should be anything other than advisory partners with no voting rights in the EU. Once we have a stable and prosperous Europe with more equally distributed wealth then all nations can work together equal footing? Doesn't that sound like common sense, although admittedly deeply impractical!
AKA badgerjelly

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