Should the UK leave the European Union?

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Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk »

Belindi I'm not sure why you are addressing that point to me exactly?
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Mark1955 wrote: September 6th, 2018, 9:38 am
ThomasHobbes wrote: August 23rd, 2018, 5:45 am
So for what reasons did you vote Brexit?
Was it square bananas?
Or did you vote to leave the EU because of immigration from the rest of the world?
Two main reasons, firstly big isn't better, big is inflexible, frequently dogmatic and dictatorial. One size never fits all it frequently doesn't really fit anyone. I believe the desire to be big stems largely from a desire to 'compete' with the US and is about politicians urge for power rather than any economic benefit to EU citizens.
Big is beautiful.
Better together than apart.
There is strength in numbers.
Economies of scale.
Level playing field.
Uniform standards.
Shall I go on?

Secondly the EU isn't a democracy, it a bureaucracy with a democratic fig leaf. This bureaucracy is frequently corrupt [see today's report on the appointment of one of Junker's pals to a key job with no proper selection procedure] and generally populated by failed politicians.
True, and it has ended up as a corporate knocking shop. Bloated and inefficient governance.
I couldn't give a fig for bananas square or otherwise, but it's a useful topic to point out that as all bananas are clones of each other [one size fits all] one decent virus or bug and we will live in a banana free world.
While it is true the UK has a population problem,
Rubbish.
It is in desperate need of more young people. With an ageing population and increasingly small body of people will struggle to support the old folk who are not working.
England has the highest population density of any major nation,
no it does not.
our only competitors are places like Singapore; and population density correlates very well to social disorder and crime,
Rubbish.Cite Japan
not to mention failing public services;
that is because of too few tax payers supporting non tax payers, that is why we NEED more immigrants.
there are too many lazy people in the UK so we have no choice but to import labour from abroad to do our antisocial work for us, which is why those who did vote Brexit to keep the foreigners out will discover they have been, lets say, constructively mislead.
You sound like an idiot Daily Mail reader, as I suspected.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Eduk wrote: September 5th, 2018, 2:47 pm Which is it Thomas. Either the free press are a huge threat to democracy or it is as easy to see their bias as it is to tell water goes down?
It's like you are saying cliffs are a huge threat to all life except for you who can obviously just see them because you are the only awake person.
Possibly the most stupid analogy I've seen in a long time.
It's more like a world where only the Model T Ford is made, and people who want to buy a car are faced with Henry Ford's words "You can have any color you want as long as it is BLACK"

People get their info from MSM. That's why they call it mainstream.
Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk »

Thomas. Just to be super clear.
1. People get their information from msm.
2. Msm is all equivalent to mein kampf.
3. It is obviously all equivalent to mein kampf.
4. So presumably, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what you are saying is that people are too flawed to realise this obvious thing?
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Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk »

By the way you seem to have shifted your stance slightly to msm only? So there are other news sources but they don't count because 'people' get their information from msm. What is stopping people from changing their sources to non msm? Or would doing so immediately make that source msm and therefore dangerous and subversive?
I think a better analogy than there being only one car manufacturer would be the real world situation we have now with multiple manufacturers world wide.
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Belindi
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi »

Eduk wrote: September 6th, 2018, 1:40 pm Belindi I'm not sure why you are addressing that point to me exactly?
Sorry, Eduk, if I misunderstood. I had thought that my disapproval of the Daily Mail was not to your taste. I forget why. Might have been better if I had addressed my subsequent explanation to the forum in general.

People who read the Daily Mail do so because it's an easy read which requires not thought but emotional reaction, and The Mail expresses the prejudices that elicit that particular emotional reaction.
Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk »

I think the Daily Mail is horrible. I don't read it and I would recommend that no one does. It is however democratic and protected under free speech, and rightly so in my opinion. Just because I disagree with someone, on some point, doesn't mean I hold the extreme opposite opinion to them on all other points.
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Belindi
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi »

Eduk, like you I support free speech. Speech is not free when it's fuelled by ignorance or emotional reaction. Reason is the only known path to freedom.
Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk »

It is still unfortunately free. I am free to be ignorant and I am free to be emotional, as are you. You use reason to rightly prioritise reason but other people are free not to use reason so they don't know how to prioritise anything. I am not saying this situation is ideal. I don't like the Daily Mail. But free speech has been shown to be of high value. The problem is if you don't have free speech then you end up with dictators where people are genuinely not free.
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Belindi
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi »

Eduk wrote: September 7th, 2018, 11:38 am It is still unfortunately free. I am free to be ignorant and I am free to be emotional, as are you. You use reason to rightly prioritise reason but other people are free not to use reason so they don't know how to prioritise anything. I am not saying this situation is ideal. I don't like the Daily Mail. But free speech has been shown to be of high value. The problem is if you don't have free speech then you end up with dictators where people are genuinely not free.
Eduk, these many underprivileged people who lack the advantages that financial security would give them can't afford the luxury of freedom of thought. Only when there is equality of opportunity can there be freedom of thought.
Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk »

Well I don't think this is as simple as you do. Obviously we don't live in a perfect equality. But nor do we live in a perfect inequality. And money isn't a perfect indicator of reality, nor perfectly unindicative.
There certainly is an issue with vicious circles but money isn't the whole and only issue (although it is one issue). For example many children are abused in their own homes. This causes a cycle of abuse. Does being poor cause this? Or correlate with it?
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Mark1955
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Mark1955 »

ThomasHobbes wrote: September 6th, 2018, 4:15 pmYou sound like an idiot Daily Mail reader, as I suspected.
Ah personal abuse, the substitute for thought.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
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Rederic
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Rederic »

I think Putin must be really enjoying the break up of the E.U. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the funding for anti E.U. parties is coming from Moscow.
E.U. first N.A.T.O next?
Religion is at its best when it makes us ask hard questions of ourselves.
It is at its worst when it deludes us into thinking we have all the answers for everybody else.
Archibald Macleish.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Mark1955 wrote: September 13th, 2018, 6:03 am
ThomasHobbes wrote: September 6th, 2018, 4:15 pmYou sound like an idiot Daily Mail reader, as I suspected.
Ah personal abuse, the substitute for thought.
reading the Daily Mail; substitute for thinking.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Rederic wrote: September 13th, 2018, 11:19 am I think Putin must be really enjoying the break up of the E.U. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the funding for anti E.U. parties is coming from Moscow.
E.U. first N.A.T.O next?
Brexit is not the break up of the EU in any sense. But he is right to be pissed off at the EU/US backed coup in the Ukraine against the spirit of Obama disarmament deal.
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