Should the UK leave the European Union?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Post Reply
Dolphin42
Posts: 886
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 8:05 am
Location: The Evening Star

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Burning ghost:

Would you say that the only "actual Democracy" is direct Democracy? Is Representative Democracy not also a form of actual Democracy? It seems to me that there is no obvious, objectively existing dividing line between the two. The extent to which the public delegates decision making to elected representatives is a matter of debate, with no clear right answer.

On the referendum: It was agreed by act of Parliament (and therefore agreed by our elected representatives) that a single referendum would take place. That referendum has now happened. If we then decide we're going to have more referendums to decide on details, how far are we going to take that?



Advice to Togo1:

Just call it "campaign rhetoric". Seems to work.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Burning ghost »

As an example let us look at th Iraq war. If the public could have force the government in th UK to put it to the national vote then the UK may have never been invloved.

For me democracy is about the people of a nation being able to legally petition the government and demand a national vote. This not only put more responsibility on the government to inform the public about its decisions, but adds political resppnaibility to the people.

In Switzerland the people can start a petition and if they get enough people to sign in within a certain perios of time then the vote has to go national.

The western world puts on this pretense of "fighting for democracy", but to me many forms of "democracy" are undemocratic.

Someone listed the meaning of "fascism" on this forum. The US, an apparent "democracy" just happened to tick the majority of these boxes.
AKA badgerjelly
Dolphin42
Posts: 886
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 8:05 am
Location: The Evening Star

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Burning ghost:
As an example let us look at th Iraq war. If the public could have force the government in th UK to put it to the national vote then the UK may have never been invloved.
I presume you would regard that as having been a good thing. Especially with the benefit of hindsight. But what about other issues? Take the death sentence. Last time I looked, the majority of the UK population were in favour of bringing back capital punishment for some serious crimes. But the majority of elected representatives are against it. Possibly that's a good thing? As a member of the public, when I read news of the latest heinous violent crime it's easy for me to say "string him up!" and then return to my daily life. I think it might be a good thing that the actual decision is in the hands of people who have to consider the consequences for a bit longer than 5 seconds.
For me democracy is about the people of a nation being able to legally petition the government and demand a national vote. This not only put more responsibility on the government to inform the public about its decisions, but adds political resppnaibility to the people.

In Switzerland the people can start a petition and if they get enough people to sign in within a certain perios of time then the vote has to go national.
It depends what you mean by "the people of a nation". Obviously you don't mean all the people - just a large vocal subset. In that case, we have the question of how many signatories the petition has to garner in order to automatically prompt a national referendum.

To me, that's not what democracy necessarily is. I agree with public votes on broad matters of principle, such as whether the country is run according to the principles of what we sometimes label as "the left" (relatively high taxation and strong public services) or "the right" (low taxes and an emphasis on the power of markets). But for people, whether politicians or public, to vote on issues that require specific knowledge it seems obvious to me that the specific knowledge has to have been aquired before a meaningful vote can be cast. That's why we have the concept of representative democracy. We hire representatives to consider the details and we vote for them, or for their opponents, based on the broad principles, or philosophies, that (we hope) underpin their specific decisions.
The western world puts on this pretense of "fighting for democracy", but to me many forms of "democracy" are undemocratic.
I think the question of whether it makes sense to wage wars in order to impose democracy is a specific issue that has to be dealt with individually.
Someone listed the meaning of "fascism" on this forum. The US, an apparent "democracy" just happened to tick the majority of these boxes.
I don't think it is true that the US ticks the "fascism" boxes. It's always possible that it could get there, as it is with any other country. And it can be argued that some aspects of President Elect Trump's personality suggest parallels with some previous fascistic leaders. But only some. And perhaps only superficially. And that's a long way from saying that the US is a fascist state. There are plenty of counter-arguments that it is constituted in such a way that it is extremely unlikely to turn into one.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

How do we think it's going so far?

Is the UK continuing its glorious march towards freedom from bureaucracy and self determination? Or is Brexit a slow motion car crash that is swallowing up vast amounts of legislative time and is going to cost us a fortune? Or somewhere in between?

Does anybody who voted for Brexit feel disappointed at all that the £350,000,000 per week for the NHS that we were promised probably won't materialise and instead what we'll got is a bill for trillions?
Togo1
Posts: 541
Joined: September 23rd, 2015, 9:52 am

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Togo1 »

I'm busy implementing additional bureaucracy required for Brexit. Previously our clients had to comply with EU rules, now they have to comply with UK rules that replace the UK rules, and with EU rules, if they want to do business there.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Togo: Interesting. Keep us posted on how that's going. I don't know what industry you work in, but that sounds quite far-sighted. The company I work for hasn't even started thinking about it yet.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

So, how do we think it's going? Who's stockpiling tins of baked beans and insulin ready for March next year?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by LuckyR »

Steve3007 wrote: July 23rd, 2018, 5:19 pm So, how do we think it's going? Who's stockpiling tins of baked beans and insulin ready for March next year?
Is it going to be a Hard or Soft Brexit? Do you predict a referendum on the referendum?
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Even though we're now only 8 months away from it, it's difficult to predict what sort of Brexit it's going to be because of the absolute chaos in government. "Crashing out without a deal" seems to be the current fashionable term. But opinions seem to even be divided over whether this would be a good or a bad thing.

Given to madness and lies in the original Brexit campaign there certainly is a lot of talk of another referendum of some kind. But I think that would cause such uproar from the hard-line Brexiters that it couldn't really ever happen. Jacob Rees-Mogg, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage would storm parliament and overthrow the government.
Gertie
Posts: 2181
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 7:09 am

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Gertie »

A second referendum on the final deal strikes me as the best we can realistically hope for now.

I doubt either main party would risk putting a bill forward for it, but maybe the SNP or Lucas would.

My view is that the only legit way to overturn a referendum vote is with another referendum vote. And now we have a clearer idea of what the reality of Brexit means, and will have an actual deal/no deal on the table, it's legit to ask for a second ref. Not to mention all the shenanigans of the Leave campaign which are coming out.

I suspect a Remain result from a second ref would scrape a win, causing a lot of resentment from Brexiteers and the possible resurgence of UKIP. But that's deal-with-able. Meanwhile Labour can present alternative solutions to the people who want to see a change from the neo-liberal staus quo and Tory Austerity.
Gordon975
Posts: 101
Joined: December 9th, 2014, 6:51 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Gordon975 »

The discussion around Brexit seem to be all about the economy, however surely the most important part of the European Union is the unity of its people around the common cause of better living standards for all members.
The UK is a European country not just geographically but culturally, and it is the cultural ties between European countries that are more important than the economic ones to the UK economy, the economy will look after itself so long as close and friendly conditions exist between our European neighbours and us.
I myself voted remain and am a dedicated Remainer or Remoaner call me what you will, I believe that the EU with all its faults is a great institution and we should not only remain part of it but become better integrated into its political and economic structures including the Euro and ultimately Schengen.
I am a European and the leave decision if taken to its conclusion removes my perceived citizenship of Europe.
If we leave the EU we run the risk of being trapped in what amounts to an Island Prison with Brexit leave politicians and our ruling elite plus their masters acting as the populations political guards able to impose what laws they choose to mitigate the mess both economic and social that they have instigated.
The latest opinion polls in the UK show a majority in favour of a new referendum on whether to stay in or continue to leave the EU lets just hope that sanity and commonsense triumph and this happens.
User avatar
Rederic
Posts: 589
Joined: May 30th, 2012, 8:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell
Location: South coast of England

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Rederic »

Has anyone else noticed that a lot of the avid brexiteers are wealthy. The cynic in me wonders how Aaran Banks is going to gain from Brexit?
Religion is at its best when it makes us ask hard questions of ourselves.
It is at its worst when it deludes us into thinking we have all the answers for everybody else.
Archibald Macleish.
User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 739
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Mark1955 »

Rederic wrote: July 30th, 2018, 6:14 am Has anyone else noticed that a lot of the avid brexiteers are wealthy. The cynic in me wonders how Aaran Banks is going to gain from Brexit?
Interesting you think this as the spin from the remoaners is that those who voted to leave are old and stupid, not usually people who are very well off.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Mark1955 wrote: July 30th, 2018, 1:51 pm
Rederic wrote: July 30th, 2018, 6:14 am Has anyone else noticed that a lot of the avid brexiteers are wealthy. The cynic in me wonders how Aaran Banks is going to gain from Brexit?
Interesting you think this as the spin from the remoaners is that those who voted to leave are old and stupid, not usually people who are very well off.
Wot about Rees-Mogg?
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Interesting you think this as the spin from the remoaners is that those who voted to leave are old and stupid, not usually people who are very well off.
I think one of the problems that the "remainers" have faced when trying to oppose the "leavers" is that the word "remainer" is easier to alter, to turn it into a pejorative term. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a way to do the equivalent of "remoaner"" to the word "leaver".
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021