Democracy for a Socialist?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Post Reply
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13813
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by Belinda »

Working class, undereducated, older or middle aged people are largely those who voted to leave the European union, is probably a fact.

Democracy's weakness is that it allows for poorly informed people to have the same power as the more able.

The Labour Party is headed by a man who has failed to rally or even to adequately inform the working classes. The Conservative government has failed to arrange for the education system to teach civics and basic history as a core subject as necessary as the three Rs.

Civics is not taught in schools or in any public information media. A qualification in basic civics and basic reasoning should be a prerequisite for the right to vote.

I don't think that this opinion of mine is veering towards fascist, because education and information are achieved and can be achieved by anybody from the poorest to the richest. Please see the present Lord Mayor of London who is a brown man of Asian descent whose father was a bus driver, a Lord Mayor who has presided over a huge city that voted to remain European, and therefore a man who can speak to the poorer people.

I sincerely hope that those who voted to leave the EU will not suffer from the consequences of their stupidity;if they suffer we will all suffer.

))))))))))))))))))))

This topic is not new enough and I should have placed it in LucyLu's thread about the Referendum. Sorry.
Socialist
User avatar
Ormond
Posts: 932
Joined: December 30th, 2015, 8:14 pm

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by Ormond »

Belinda wrote:Working class, undereducated, older or middle aged people are largely those who voted to leave the European union, is probably a fact. Democracy's weakness is that it allows for poorly informed people to have the same power as the more able.
Well, let's recall what the well informed educated upper class elites did. They let the housing bubble spin wildly out of control, crashed the economy, and at the last minute very narrowly avoided a global economic crash, the most likely outcome of which would have been the next global war, nuclear this time.

The well informed educated upper class elites didn't see Trump coming, they didn't see Sanders coming, they didn't see this EU crisis coming either, or they wouldn't have called a referendum on the topic.

What the working class, under educated, older people in both our countries did was give the elites the hard slap that they richly deserve, something the well informed educated upper classes were incapable of seeing, or doing.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
User avatar
Alec Smart
Posts: 671
Joined: June 28th, 2015, 12:28 pm

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by Alec Smart »

Belinda wrote:Working class, undereducated, older or middle aged people are largely those who voted to leave the European union, is probably a fact.
I fall into the above category, exactly, except I didn't vote. I just couldn't bring myself to take part in such a cack handed farce. I do, however, think you're being a bit unfair on the working class, Belinda. It seems to me that their main concern was immigration. The reason why immigration might be of greater concern to the working class than it is to the middle class is probably because they are more likely to see and feel the results of it. Incidentally, I don't think being too poorly informed or, indeed, lacking sufficient intelligence, are disqualifying characteristics that are restricted to the working class. I don't consider myself to be well enough informed to vote and very rarely do.
Smart by name and Alec by nature.
User avatar
The Beast
Posts: 1403
Joined: July 7th, 2013, 10:32 pm

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by The Beast »

Did the referendum shown beyond need of further proof the will of the people?

The search for true happiness is marred by false intentions. In the case of the Brits I would say that the definite state of happiness is 65% in a referendum of its destiny. It might be 70% for others. Simple majority is foolish.
User avatar
Alec Smart
Posts: 671
Joined: June 28th, 2015, 12:28 pm

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by Alec Smart »

The Beast wrote:Did the referendum shown beyond need of further proof the will of the people?

The search for true happiness is marred by false intentions. In the case of the Brits I would say that the definite state of happiness is 65% in a referendum of its destiny. It might be 70% for others. Simple majority is foolish.
Perfect nonsense, as usual.
Smart by name and Alec by nature.
User avatar
The Beast
Posts: 1403
Joined: July 7th, 2013, 10:32 pm

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by The Beast »

The usual is your response. You defined your state of happiness as a monochromatic entity appeased (happy) by its visual inputs. Nothing wrong with that. However. It is your mindless way of seeing the solution as being alone in your neck of the woods what is senseless. I will change my impression of you (from 65 to 60) if you can provide a definition of human being. I know what is that drives you. Whatever you say is the 52%. Not that matters much since I know and everyone else knows as well what you mean… and so the beat goes on to the rest of Nations with a workable definition of human being. Not that you care.
User avatar
Alec Smart
Posts: 671
Joined: June 28th, 2015, 12:28 pm

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by Alec Smart »

The Beast wrote:You defined your state of happiness as a monochromatic entity appeased (happy) by its visual inputs.
Did I? I wonder what I was talking about when I said that.

-- Updated June 25th, 2016, 4:04 pm to add the following --
The Beast wrote: However. It is your mindless way of seeing the solution as being alone in your neck of the woods what is senseless. I will change my impression of you (from 65 to 60) if you can provide a definition of human being. I know what is that drives you. Whatever you say is the 52%. Not that matters much since I know and everyone else knows as well what you mean… and so the beat goes on to the rest of Nations with a workable definition of human being. Not that you care.
I wonder what you were talking about when you said this. I daresay you also wonder what it was.
Smart by name and Alec by nature.
User avatar
The Beast
Posts: 1403
Joined: July 7th, 2013, 10:32 pm

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by The Beast »

Very well. There is no resolution as always. Why do you even consider to say anything if you don’t know that you are right. If you are: What is your definition of peace in the world? You said that is your wish.
User avatar
Alec Smart
Posts: 671
Joined: June 28th, 2015, 12:28 pm

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by Alec Smart »

The Beast wrote:Very well. There is no resolution as always. Why do you even consider to say anything if you don’t know that you are right. If you are: What is your definition of peace in the world? You said that is your wish.
I think you are referring to something I said in another thread some time ago. Nothing I said in that thread has anything to do with this thread and vice vesa. If you carry on like this we're going to end up with a load of tangled threads.
Smart by name and Alec by nature.
User avatar
The Beast
Posts: 1403
Joined: July 7th, 2013, 10:32 pm

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by The Beast »

There. I stick the 65% to eliminate such confusion. People do get confuse as you said. Moreover, it could work both ways meaning a referendum with each general elections until 65%. Not a lot of brain at the pub eh?
Gary S
Posts: 239
Joined: May 7th, 2011, 3:23 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Greta

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by Gary S »

Belinda wrote:Democracy's weakness is that it allows for poorly informed people to have the same power as the more able.
A few questions:

Do you include yourself as one of the "more able"?

What percentage of those who voted to leave the EU would you guess were poorly informed?

What percentage of those who voted to remain in the EU would you guess were poorly informed?

Who would design the "civics and reasoning" test? Who would determine the passing grade?

What if the level of difficulty of the proposed "civics and reasoning" qualification prevented you, Belinda, from obtaining it. Would you be upset? Would you say the test was unfair or too hard? Would you say the passing score needs to be lowered?
Belinda wrote:Working class, undereducated, older or middle aged people are largely those who voted to leave the European union
Obviously the under-educated are under-educated, but are you implying that a large percentage of working class, older or middle aged people should not be allowed to vote because they are not knowledgeable? Just because they may have voted "the wrong way" in your opinion?

What if a US citizen said that dumb people overwhelmingly voted for Obama and then said those dumb people should not have been allowed to vote. Would you have had any issues with that?

Do you feel that you are better able to determine what is good for someone than they are themselves?

Do you feel that some women should not be allowed to vote? Would you be comfortable standing in the public square with a sign that says "Some Muslims should not be allowed to vote!"

I am surprised that you of all people would come up with this. Essentially what I see here is that you are saying that people who did not agree with your position are not smart enough to vote.
Sanchez
Posts: 98
Joined: March 30th, 2016, 8:03 am

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by Sanchez »

Whenever someone proposes a test to determine whether people are fit to vote, I immediately think that there is circular reasoning at work: being fit means voting for the right thing, which in this case seems to be staying in the EU. Would the test include a question on whether they wanted to stay in the EU, and if the answer is no, they are deemed unfit? This sort of testing opens the door for totalitarianism and contains a devious trap: once people are deemed unfit, they cannot argue against that judgment, since they would be unfit to do so. People in UK voted against this type of elitism.

It amazes me that many supporters of EU are so adamant about it that they are actually willing to limit civil liberties if that is required to keep EU intact. One politician tweeted that he hopes this is a bad dream. In other words, it's sad that the British people voted, voted wrong and that decision has to be respected. The reaction to this vote is all the more reason for the EU to be disbanded. They only respect democracy when it suits them. I for one enjoy the outcry. It's about time the EU learned that it isn't indestructible.

Although I have to point out that some of Gary S' arguments are flawed. If a test for voting existed, some women wouldn't pass and neither would some Muslims. Neither would some Christians and men. You're effectively saying that Belinda should proclaim herself as a sexist and an Islamophobe even if her position had nothing to do with this. Most of what you say is valid, though. I would like to see the reaction of people who support this test and then fail it.
Gary S
Posts: 239
Joined: May 7th, 2011, 3:23 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Greta

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by Gary S »

Sanchez wrote:Although I have to point out that some of Gary S' arguments are flawed. If a test for voting existed, some women wouldn't pass and neither would some Muslims. Neither would some Christians and men. You're effectively saying that Belinda should proclaim herself as a sexist and an Islamophobe even if her position had nothing to do with this. Most of what you say is valid, though. I would like to see the reaction of people who support this test and then fail it.
Agree completely with your first two paragraphs. Just to make things clear, the particular questions were simply questions - not arguments. I was attempting to clarify Belinda's position. Belinda is generally all for equality of everyone. I am rather shocked to see her writing that when it comes to voting, she would discriminate against some. I suppose the two questions were designed to make Belinda think a bit deeper about her idea.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by LuckyR »

I suppose that if your party is skillful enough to convince the masses of folks to vote against their own best interests (and therefore for your best interests instead), then I guess you deserve to win and reap the benefits of the playing field being slanted in your favor. That is true genius.
"As usual... it depends."
Gary S
Posts: 239
Joined: May 7th, 2011, 3:23 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Greta

Re: Democracy for a Socialist?

Post by Gary S »

In 1975, the UK held a referendum to determine whether to stay in the European Community or not. 66% of the voters said the UK should remain in. So are the voters much less knowledgeable in 2016 than they were in 1975? Or has the voter come to his senses and decided that it just isn't working as promised?

Lucky, do you presume to know what the "exit" voters deem as important? You are insinuating that the "exit" voters voted against their best interests. That depends on how they prioritize their interests. What you deem important may not matter to those voters. Can you honestly say that you can better determine what is good for those people than they can themselves?
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021