Democracy for a Socialist?
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Democracy for a Socialist?
Democracy's weakness is that it allows for poorly informed people to have the same power as the more able.
The Labour Party is headed by a man who has failed to rally or even to adequately inform the working classes. The Conservative government has failed to arrange for the education system to teach civics and basic history as a core subject as necessary as the three Rs.
Civics is not taught in schools or in any public information media. A qualification in basic civics and basic reasoning should be a prerequisite for the right to vote.
I don't think that this opinion of mine is veering towards fascist, because education and information are achieved and can be achieved by anybody from the poorest to the richest. Please see the present Lord Mayor of London who is a brown man of Asian descent whose father was a bus driver, a Lord Mayor who has presided over a huge city that voted to remain European, and therefore a man who can speak to the poorer people.
I sincerely hope that those who voted to leave the EU will not suffer from the consequences of their stupidity;if they suffer we will all suffer.
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This topic is not new enough and I should have placed it in LucyLu's thread about the Referendum. Sorry.
- Ormond
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
Well, let's recall what the well informed educated upper class elites did. They let the housing bubble spin wildly out of control, crashed the economy, and at the last minute very narrowly avoided a global economic crash, the most likely outcome of which would have been the next global war, nuclear this time.Belinda wrote:Working class, undereducated, older or middle aged people are largely those who voted to leave the European union, is probably a fact. Democracy's weakness is that it allows for poorly informed people to have the same power as the more able.
The well informed educated upper class elites didn't see Trump coming, they didn't see Sanders coming, they didn't see this EU crisis coming either, or they wouldn't have called a referendum on the topic.
What the working class, under educated, older people in both our countries did was give the elites the hard slap that they richly deserve, something the well informed educated upper classes were incapable of seeing, or doing.
- Alec Smart
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
I fall into the above category, exactly, except I didn't vote. I just couldn't bring myself to take part in such a cack handed farce. I do, however, think you're being a bit unfair on the working class, Belinda. It seems to me that their main concern was immigration. The reason why immigration might be of greater concern to the working class than it is to the middle class is probably because they are more likely to see and feel the results of it. Incidentally, I don't think being too poorly informed or, indeed, lacking sufficient intelligence, are disqualifying characteristics that are restricted to the working class. I don't consider myself to be well enough informed to vote and very rarely do.Belinda wrote:Working class, undereducated, older or middle aged people are largely those who voted to leave the European union, is probably a fact.
- The Beast
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
The search for true happiness is marred by false intentions. In the case of the Brits I would say that the definite state of happiness is 65% in a referendum of its destiny. It might be 70% for others. Simple majority is foolish.
- Alec Smart
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
Perfect nonsense, as usual.The Beast wrote:Did the referendum shown beyond need of further proof the will of the people?
The search for true happiness is marred by false intentions. In the case of the Brits I would say that the definite state of happiness is 65% in a referendum of its destiny. It might be 70% for others. Simple majority is foolish.
- The Beast
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
- Alec Smart
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
Did I? I wonder what I was talking about when I said that.The Beast wrote:You defined your state of happiness as a monochromatic entity appeased (happy) by its visual inputs.
-- Updated June 25th, 2016, 4:04 pm to add the following --
I wonder what you were talking about when you said this. I daresay you also wonder what it was.The Beast wrote: However. It is your mindless way of seeing the solution as being alone in your neck of the woods what is senseless. I will change my impression of you (from 65 to 60) if you can provide a definition of human being. I know what is that drives you. Whatever you say is the 52%. Not that matters much since I know and everyone else knows as well what you mean… and so the beat goes on to the rest of Nations with a workable definition of human being. Not that you care.
- The Beast
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
- Alec Smart
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
I think you are referring to something I said in another thread some time ago. Nothing I said in that thread has anything to do with this thread and vice vesa. If you carry on like this we're going to end up with a load of tangled threads.The Beast wrote:Very well. There is no resolution as always. Why do you even consider to say anything if you don’t know that you are right. If you are: What is your definition of peace in the world? You said that is your wish.
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
A few questions:Belinda wrote:Democracy's weakness is that it allows for poorly informed people to have the same power as the more able.
Do you include yourself as one of the "more able"?
What percentage of those who voted to leave the EU would you guess were poorly informed?
What percentage of those who voted to remain in the EU would you guess were poorly informed?
Who would design the "civics and reasoning" test? Who would determine the passing grade?
What if the level of difficulty of the proposed "civics and reasoning" qualification prevented you, Belinda, from obtaining it. Would you be upset? Would you say the test was unfair or too hard? Would you say the passing score needs to be lowered?
Obviously the under-educated are under-educated, but are you implying that a large percentage of working class, older or middle aged people should not be allowed to vote because they are not knowledgeable? Just because they may have voted "the wrong way" in your opinion?Belinda wrote:Working class, undereducated, older or middle aged people are largely those who voted to leave the European union
What if a US citizen said that dumb people overwhelmingly voted for Obama and then said those dumb people should not have been allowed to vote. Would you have had any issues with that?
Do you feel that you are better able to determine what is good for someone than they are themselves?
Do you feel that some women should not be allowed to vote? Would you be comfortable standing in the public square with a sign that says "Some Muslims should not be allowed to vote!"
I am surprised that you of all people would come up with this. Essentially what I see here is that you are saying that people who did not agree with your position are not smart enough to vote.
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
It amazes me that many supporters of EU are so adamant about it that they are actually willing to limit civil liberties if that is required to keep EU intact. One politician tweeted that he hopes this is a bad dream. In other words, it's sad that the British people voted, voted wrong and that decision has to be respected. The reaction to this vote is all the more reason for the EU to be disbanded. They only respect democracy when it suits them. I for one enjoy the outcry. It's about time the EU learned that it isn't indestructible.
Although I have to point out that some of Gary S' arguments are flawed. If a test for voting existed, some women wouldn't pass and neither would some Muslims. Neither would some Christians and men. You're effectively saying that Belinda should proclaim herself as a sexist and an Islamophobe even if her position had nothing to do with this. Most of what you say is valid, though. I would like to see the reaction of people who support this test and then fail it.
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
Agree completely with your first two paragraphs. Just to make things clear, the particular questions were simply questions - not arguments. I was attempting to clarify Belinda's position. Belinda is generally all for equality of everyone. I am rather shocked to see her writing that when it comes to voting, she would discriminate against some. I suppose the two questions were designed to make Belinda think a bit deeper about her idea.Sanchez wrote:Although I have to point out that some of Gary S' arguments are flawed. If a test for voting existed, some women wouldn't pass and neither would some Muslims. Neither would some Christians and men. You're effectively saying that Belinda should proclaim herself as a sexist and an Islamophobe even if her position had nothing to do with this. Most of what you say is valid, though. I would like to see the reaction of people who support this test and then fail it.
- LuckyR
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
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Re: Democracy for a Socialist?
Lucky, do you presume to know what the "exit" voters deem as important? You are insinuating that the "exit" voters voted against their best interests. That depends on how they prioritize their interests. What you deem important may not matter to those voters. Can you honestly say that you can better determine what is good for those people than they can themselves?
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