Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

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TigerNinja
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Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by TigerNinja »

I was talking to my father about democracy and politics (Of which I know very little about yet am still posting here :bored: ) and he brought up his idea of an ideal form of democracy. Some people, even if it is not their fault, may not be properly educated. A politician or economist however, knows lots on subjects like democracy. His idea was to heighten or lower the vote's weight upon the political debate depending upon their knowledge of the subject. An uneducated man who doesn't know anything about politics whatsoever may get 0.5 votes, whereas a skilled and highly intelligent political economist would get 10 votes. The philosophy of this is allowing the more able on that specific topic to sway the debate in a way in which his more professional and apt view sees fit. This then allows the best in the topic to have a higher likelihood of furthering the betterment of their nation. Note that everyone gets a vote, although not everyone carries the same weight with it. What is your opinion on this idea?
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by Alias »

It would very hard to rate people to begin with, and they complicate things further by learning as they age. There is no guarantee that a brick-layer can't be better informed and more sensible on the subject of energy generation, for example, than a professor of economics. Government officials have to make decisions in so many different areas, and you never know which will become emergent in the coming years.

A better approach would be to make sure of the equality under the law and opportunity already enshrined in the concept of democracy. Then press your representatives, at all levels of government, to provide the same quality of education and access to all citizens.
In a clean democracy, attended by a competent news media, this would happen automatically: the people themselves would keep demanding equal treatment from their governments. You don't need a Harvard degree to see what's unfair.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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LuckyR
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by LuckyR »

TigerNinja wrote:I was talking to my father about democracy and politics (Of which I know very little about yet am still posting here :bored: ) and he brought up his idea of an ideal form of democracy. Some people, even if it is not their fault, may not be properly educated. A politician or economist however, knows lots on subjects like democracy. His idea was to heighten or lower the vote's weight upon the political debate depending upon their knowledge of the subject. An uneducated man who doesn't know anything about politics whatsoever may get 0.5 votes, whereas a skilled and highly intelligent political economist would get 10 votes. The philosophy of this is allowing the more able on that specific topic to sway the debate in a way in which his more professional and apt view sees fit. This then allows the best in the topic to have a higher likelihood of furthering the betterment of their nation. Note that everyone gets a vote, although not everyone carries the same weight with it. What is your opinion on this idea?
Luckily, that sort of thing already exists. Namely that folks who don't follow issues closely, vote less often as a group than those who do. It has the advantage (compared to your dad's idea) in that it gives the impression that everyone is equal, even it that is practically untrue. He will have a hell of a time convincing anyone that they get half a vote. That is a psychological nonstarter.
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TSBU
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by TSBU »

How old are you?
I can tell some "useless" things about economy, I've read some things of some dead and alive famous people (on internet, and because I had to do it to get my degree).

How old are you? How often do you watch tv? Don't you have the feeling that something is wrong? You may not understand something, but...
Politicians don't talk about politics or economics really. They talk about building an anoying wall in some countries, about God. They kiss kids, they tell sad stories, they talk loud, and they say nothing. In every country, more than half of people don't read books in their free time, they don't even have a little knowledge about their laws. Have the right makeup is more important to get voters... c'mon, where are you from?

:(
Nick_A
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by Nick_A »

TigerNinja wrote:I was talking to my father about democracy and politics (Of which I know very little about yet am still posting here :bored: ) and he brought up his idea of an ideal form of democracy. Some people, even if it is not their fault, may not be properly educated. A politician or economist however, knows lots on subjects like democracy. His idea was to heighten or lower the vote's weight upon the political debate depending upon their knowledge of the subject. An uneducated man who doesn't know anything about politics whatsoever may get 0.5 votes, whereas a skilled and highly intelligent political economist would get 10 votes. The philosophy of this is allowing the more able on that specific topic to sway the debate in a way in which his more professional and apt view sees fit. This then allows the best in the topic to have a higher likelihood of furthering the betterment of their nation. Note that everyone gets a vote, although not everyone carries the same weight with it. What is your opinion on this idea?
I would basically agree. I would suggest the voting age be raised to 25 and a person should pass a test in English on basic Constitutional literacy, If a person doesn't understand the basic aims and values the constitution supports, why should they vote?

-- Updated Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:39 pm to add the following --
TigerNinja wrote:I was talking to my father about democracy and politics (Of which I know very little about yet am still posting here :bored: ) and he brought up his idea of an ideal form of democracy. Some people, even if it is not their fault, may not be properly educated. A politician or economist however, knows lots on subjects like democracy. His idea was to heighten or lower the vote's weight upon the political debate depending upon their knowledge of the subject. An uneducated man who doesn't know anything about politics whatsoever may get 0.5 votes, whereas a skilled and highly intelligent political economist would get 10 votes. The philosophy of this is allowing the more able on that specific topic to sway the debate in a way in which his more professional and apt view sees fit. This then allows the best in the topic to have a higher likelihood of furthering the betterment of their nation. Note that everyone gets a vote, although not everyone carries the same weight with it. What is your opinion on this idea?
I would basically agree. I would suggest the voting age be raised to 25 and a person should pass a test in English on basic Constitutional literacy, If a person doesn't understand the basic aims and values the constitution supports, why should they vote?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Carol
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by Carol »

Your father's suggestion may seem logical, but it is flawed. Perhaps the most serious problem our democracy in the US is having at this time is excessive reliance on "experts".

Suggest to your father that he watch Past President Eisenhower's warning of the Military Industrial Complex. Your father may think the Military Industrial Complex does not exist and that would be a bummer because then he won't take Eisenhower's warning seriously, but perhaps you can use some creative questions to get past that problem.

You might like to know the force that gave us public education was the laborers of the US who understood education is power and wanting that for themselves and their children, they demanded an education system that would provide that education. Originally that education was liberal education- the education for free men. However, in 1958 (National Defense Education Act) we replaced that education with education for technology, for military and industrial purpose. Since then many have the education for slaves. Always, slaves had education for technology, so they could do they work.

Sorry, the subject is probably more complex than you realized. All education is not equal, and our democracy has been seriously hurt by the education we have had since 1958. There are huge social, economic and political ramifications following the change in education. The political ramifications are especially worrisome. Yes, we must have well-educated voters, but that is manifest through education, and in the past newspapers understood they were defending our liberty and democracy by educating the public. That is how to have a well-informed public, not through discriminating against voters. Hopefully more voters will be well informed than those who are not. However, know, being a brain surgeon does not assure the person is a well-informed voter, and a lowly laborer may be very informed about political matters. The miracle of democracy is all the different points of view that make the masses more correct than the "experts".
Marsh8472
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by Marsh8472 »

We have the super delegates at least to help with this during the primaries. It is annoying when I spend months looking into the issues and make an informed decision whereas other people may just vote on a whim based on some random commercial or comment made about a candidate.
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DCP81
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by DCP81 »

I think, in a way, this already happens. We may get to vote every few years, but for the most part government is run by public servants who have years of experience in their fields. As an example, it is soldiers who make decisions about training, tactics and strategy, not politician. They study for years in military academies to be able to make these decisions. The politicians role is to set priorities for the limited resources we have. The economy only brings in so much cash, how we choose to spend it, is the job of politicians. You don’t need a degree to decide what is important to the community but you need to be able to judge community sentiment. If the community doesn’t want to spend anything on defence or just very little, if it’s not important to them, well that’s their decision and they take the risks that come with it. It’s then the soldiers job to decide what to do with the limited money they get. Politicians who are unable to gauge public opinion well are usually voted out because that is their job.
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Renee
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by Renee »

Carol, I had been ignorant of the ninety-degree turn of educational policy brought about in 1958 via the National Defense Education Act.

But I can say in earnest that education must have had another ninety-degree turn since then sometime. Now the kids learn not much more than tedious busywork that prepares them to work mindlessly in factories, to take orders unquestioningly, and to not understand concepts that would make their fundamentalist Christian heads spin.

In other words, I am asserting that there is no liberal education, no science education, and no math education in schools.

On the college/university/post-graduate level, we have so many entrants that there is more than enough students in all genres of discipline. Both in liberal studies and in hard sciences.

True enough, however, and this aids your side of the argument, experimental research as well as theoretical has surpassed the speed of the same in wartime years, only because economic competition favours it, but still, this could not be achieved with a HUGE body of educated serfs, as you put it, so to speak.

Sorry, I sidetracked, but the side issue was more compelling me to say my piece.

-- Updated November 1st, 2016, 1:57 pm to add the following --

correction: ... with a huge body of... should read, ... without a huge body of...
correction: ... post-graduate level... should read, ... post-secondary level...

So much for using "quick reply" and not proofreading my copy. Sorry.
Ignorance is power.
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Carol
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by Carol »

"But I can say in earnest that education must have had another ninety-degree turn since then sometime." Your description of education is what the 1958 Act gave us. We have been dumbed down. Our equality is now the lowest common denominator, and we are reliant on policy set for us. The education specializes everyone and we have a mechanical society, but democracy requires generalist who understand a wide variety of things and can think for themselves. That is why I explained the change in education and stressed the "experts" are not better qualified to make politic decisions.
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by Ranvier »

TigerNinja wrote: An uneducated man who doesn't know anything about politics whatsoever may get 0.5 votes, whereas a skilled and highly intelligent political economist would get 10 votes. The philosophy of this is allowing the more able on that specific topic to sway the debate in a way in which his more professional and apt view sees fit. This then allows the best in the topic to have a higher likelihood of furthering the betterment of their nation. Note that everyone gets a vote, although not everyone carries the same weight with it. What is your opinion on this idea?
Wow, I'm quite speechless. We had a similar idea after abolition of slavery and with women votes. To make things simpler, we should also reduce the number of candidates to cast our votes. We already have a Pseudo-Democratic Corporate Socialism, so tweaking the voting rights shouldn't be an issue.
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by Togo1 »

TigerNinja wrote:I was talking to my father about democracy and politics (Of which I know very little about yet am still posting here :bored: ) and he brought up his idea of an ideal form of democracy. Some people, even if it is not their fault, may not be properly educated. A politician or economist however, knows lots on subjects like democracy. His idea was to heighten or lower the vote's weight upon the political debate depending upon their knowledge of the subject. An uneducated man who doesn't know anything about politics whatsoever may get 0.5 votes, whereas a skilled and highly intelligent political economist would get 10 votes. The philosophy of this is allowing the more able on that specific topic to sway the debate in a way in which his more professional and apt view sees fit. This then allows the best in the topic to have a higher likelihood of furthering the betterment of their nation. Note that everyone gets a vote, although not everyone carries the same weight with it. What is your opinion on this idea?
Eh.. the issue with this is how you decide who gets what weighting. You may notice around these boards that there often some disagreement as to who knows more about a particular subject. Sometimes those discussions get quite heated. Imagine that on a national scale.

Then tell your father that I'm very much better educated than him, on this precise subject, and thought a better idea would just be to put me in charge. If you like we can vote on that. You can have one vote, we'll be generous and give him three votes, and I'll just take ten thousand votes. If don't agree that that's fair, I guess we can just vote on that instead. Fortunately I'm an expert on voting systems too, so I'll claim 6 million votes, and you two can have one each....

Education is immensely valuable, but it doesn't make you right.
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by Alias »

Education is good, and should be available to all people. However, different kinds of education qualify people for different occupations.
The knowledge required to be a responsible citizen can be imparted well before school-leaving age (? 16,) By then the student should have been taught the mechanisms, functions and powers of government, the basis and process of law, and how the electoral system works - including participation in intramural elections.

More education may qualify people for specialized posts in government, but is unnecessary for voters.
What is essential, though, is an autonomous public broadcasting system with 100% non-commercial, -partisan- or -special interest funding.
A voter is only as good as his information.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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TigerNinja
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by TigerNinja »

TSBU wrote:How old are you?
I can tell some "useless" things about economy, I've read some things of some dead and alive famous people (on internet, and because I had to do it to get my degree).

How old are you? How often do you watch tv? Don't you have the feeling that something is wrong? You may not understand something, but...
Politicians don't talk about politics or economics really. They talk about building an anoying wall in some countries, about God. They kiss kids, they tell sad stories, they talk loud, and they say nothing. In every country, more than half of people don't read books in their free time, they don't even have a little knowledge about their laws. Have the right makeup is more important to get voters... c'mon, where are you from?

:(
I'm too young to say my age if that counts. And I am under 18. That's all I am going to say :P.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
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-1-
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Re: Can Inequality In A Democracy Be Good?

Post by -1- »

If there were equality in Democratic countries, they would be called socialist countries.

Equal access to healthcare, justice, government services, and women. Each according to his needs.

What we have here is that healthcare is sucking the nation dry, justice gotten is commensurate with how much one can pay for legal advice, government services can be bought fair and proper by lobbying, and good-looking women are got by the likes of Trump, Mick Jagger, and Wilt Chamberlain. By the truckloads. If you are an ordinary sort of guy, then tell me, I demand of you: when was the last time that two-hundred-strong naked runway model women were banging on your hotel room door to let them in for the purpose of getting deflowered? Huh? Huh? You see, in a socialist country that is an everyday norm. (This is a response directly directed at the Original Poster.)

-- Updated 2017 March 8th, 6:24 pm to add the following --
TigerNinja wrote:
I'm too young to say my age if that counts. And I am under 18. That's all I am going to say :P.
"If you are asked how young you are, they are too old for you."

-- Updated 2017 March 8th, 6:35 pm to add the following --
TigerNinja wrote: I'm too young to say my age if that counts. And I am under 18. That's all I am going to say :P.
I don't... quite get this. There is now an age limit that allows you or disallows you from stating it?

Or else... are you referring to the public sector education system, which now is so bad, that younger people are incapable of knowing their age in numerical terms? Like, I mean, you know, before a certain graduating year, people were taught numbers above 5, but after a certain graduating year, they were not taught numbers larger than five, because "You can carry your fingers everywhere, much like your calculator."

Or maybe the reasoning by the school board trustees goes, as collected from the above quote, "age counts, so you kids don't have to."

;-)

I, for one, bow to your wherewithal to take all this sh... from us old fogies without any damage to your ego (I could not do the same in the reverse situation...) I don't think you are slow but actually bright. If you are inexperienced, well, you got your excuse, but we don't for laughing at you for it.
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