Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

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Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#1  Postby Dolphin42 » November 10th, 2016, 4:39 pm

On the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December Mr Trump will officially become President Elect Trump. Let's get used to it and examine the philosophy of Trump-ism and what it might hold for us all.

In examining his campaign promises, the obvious comparisons to fascist leaders of the past have understandably been made, perhaps too many times. Lock up his political opponent; shut down all critical voices in the press; scape-goat minorities and literally label them in the way that Jews were labelled in 1930's Germany; build autobahns; grow a silly mustache. He has promised to do all of these things and more. But was this just rhetoric to appeal to the electorate? When he sits down in that elliptical office, will he tone it down? If this really finally is the re-emergence of fascism, has Mr Godwin made us too complacent to believe it?

Most interestingly: What do we think of the Trump philosophy? By which I mean: all that matters is the deal. No sentiment. No morals. Life is a game of poker. It is the job of a leader to coldly and calmly pursue the interests of his own side, and if all leaders do that, then all shall benefit. Calculate the odds of winning in any given situation and use whatever leverage is available. Take, as an example, the Trump plan to extract wall-building costs from the Mexican government. Their weakness is the money sent back to poor families by Mexican undocumented workers. That's what can be exploited to get the money. It is assumed that the Mexican government will bow to the numerical argument of a one-off 10 billion dollar payment versus an annual 24 billion dollar income. If those figures were true, what do we think of this kind of extortion-racket politics? If it gets results for the home team, is that what matters? Or does it fail to account for that fact that other people, when attacked, don't simply coolly weigh up the numbers?

Let's enter the world as ruled by Trump.
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Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?



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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#2  Postby Alias » November 11th, 2016, 6:04 pm

I'm not worried about that parallel.
He has no philosophy, no ideology, no side and no team.
He's a giant toddler who craves constant attention and throws a tantrum when scolded or thwarted.
He has an attention-span so short that he may not remember what he ordered for dinner by the time it arrives and will throw the food at the waitress because he wants something different now. The only thing he holds for any length of time is grudges.
He doesn't care about any wall, but will probably talk about it if his entourage keep reminding him that his people expect it.
He doesn't care about the Supreme Court, and will let Spence stack any way fundies want.
He doesn't care about industry, the economy, or jobs for all those people who voted for him based on those promises, but will probably appoint the exactly wrong people to wreck any trade deals that currently provide Americans with productive (rather than servile) employment.
He doesn't care about corruption, but the cronies will nag him about "draining the swamp" so they can have it all to themselves to loot whatever is left of the treasury.
He doesn't care about foreign relations, but will enjoy kicking random strangers in the teeth for having said something true about his qualifications or character. Consequently, the USA's reputation will fall even lower, minor powers will form alliances to fill the vacuum, the global relationships will shift, and Trump will be blissfully oblivious to it all, gazing upon his many important-looking but silent telephones.
The world's terrorist organizations think they've been granted license, and will test it, and he will predictably overreact and order the wrong agency to do the wrong thing.
Whatever the jackbooted yahoos get up to in the streets will be the police's problem to deal with. It's not co-ordinated or directed and has no purpose.
When the economy takes another nose-dive, he'll look around for another scapegoat.

What I hope to live long enough to see is how he and the cabinet he assembles will cope with the next big manifestation of climate change.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#3  Postby Fooloso4 » November 11th, 2016, 7:23 pm

Dolphin42:

But was this just rhetoric to appeal to the electorate?


That may be true to some extent, but even if it is what does that say about the electorate? Some percentage voted for him because they think he will bring change and “drain the swamp”, some because they believe he can fix the economy, but that still leaves a significant number who are attracted by resentment and scapegoating. They now feel vindicated and empowered. Will Trump further encourage them or continue his newfound and obviously contradictory rhetoric of unifying the nation? My guess is that he will do nothing to discourage them while continuing the empty rhetoric of unification.

When he sits down in that elliptical office, will he tone it down?


I do not think it possible for him to speak with due restraint but he will find that he will not be able to do whatever he wants. He will not be able to grab other nations by the p**sy. After meeting with Obama he is already coming to realize that running the country is not like running a business.
… all that matters is the deal.


There is a big difference between a one off business deal that you can walk away from when it fails and refuse to pay your creditors and contractors, it is quite another to establish long lasting relationships with other nations. Trump is very good at creating shiny surfaces and so, it may be that what appears to the American people to be good deals with other nations will lead to lasting distrust and bad will or he will sell the farm, giving up too much in exchange for appearances. If the public becomes aware of it in good conman fashion he will have already disappeared or will dangle another shiny object that he promises to be bigger and better - “huge and terrific, believe me” before their eyes.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#4  Postby Empiricist-Bruno » November 11th, 2016, 9:27 pm

Trump will become President? I think you discount the power of civil disobedience and the reaction of the majority of voters who did not vote for him.

He planned to have perhaps surprise reaction if he did not win the election, possibly not to concede. I think he can expect and should expect to receive what he seemed to promise he would deliver if he did not win. I still don't see him becoming president but then again, the people of the USA may disappoint me, which would be a real tragedy. Hillary gave up so that leaves the libertarian, or Jill for President. In my opinion, the next few days or weeks could and should be very interesting as we will see if the citizens of the USA have character or if they are pussies.

Maybe I'm wrong all the way and US citizens are just ***** grabber lovers or ***** grabber tolerant? I don't know. I am not ready to concede it to him yet.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#5  Postby Alias » November 11th, 2016, 9:55 pm

There was an interesting discussion about the voters' motivation on Basic Black on PBS tonight.
The tolerance of this bad behaviour by so many women is one of the difficult factors. The tolerance for xenophobia by so many Latinos was another. And: tolerance of it by educated and female whites. Why? The general scholarly consensus seems to be that 1. conservative voters are more likely to get their information from conservative sources that downplay or dismiss these aspects of their candidate, while exaggerating whatever was negative about Clinton. 2. that white women are white first and women second and 3. a lot of people don't care about the personal morals or habits or attitudes of the candidate, as long as he promises them a higher standard of living and less competition.

They never bothered to check any facts or figures, even to the veracity of the simplest statements. They never minded the contradictions or asked "How can that be done?" or "What happens afterwards?" or "What's the risk?"

Most of these people, along with most of the disappointed ones, are going to do nothing at all. They'll just keep griping as usual, and repeating whatever nonsense they hear.

It's the few really bad ones, who now feel empowered, that you have to worry about.
Democracy in Truth! Equal votes for fact and fantasy!
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#6  Postby Dolphin42 » November 13th, 2016, 3:48 pm

Dolphin42
But was this just rhetoric to appeal to the electorate?


Fooloso4:
That may be true to some extent, but even if it is what does that say about the electorate? Some percentage voted for him because they think he will bring change and “drain the swamp”, some because they believe he can fix the economy, but that still leaves a significant number who are attracted by resentment and scapegoating. They now feel vindicated and empowered.


It says that they have the same human characteristics as the normal human beings who voted for Adolph Hitler (Warning: Godwin's law alert. Wolf! Wolf!) They think that what is needed is a monster to fight on their side. They look out at the world and see monsters and think that, as his Donaldship himself said, you have to "fight fire with fire". (He should take a trip to his local fire brigade/department and see if they agree with him).

When Daesch (for example) go low, we go lower. They drown people in cages. We torture the relatives of terrorists. I suspect that many people believe that the "lead by example" approach hasn't worked. So now we'll try a return to "speak softly and carry a big stick" but without the speaking softly part, and not just carrying the stick.

I think the main task of any philosophically minded person in dealing with the election of a monster is to work out why it happened. And that means to put oneself into the shoes, and skin, of the people who voted for him and empathize. Come to the conclusion that we can see perfectly well why in those circumstances we would probably act in the same way.

Will Trump further encourage them or continue his newfound and obviously contradictory rhetoric of unifying the nation? My guess is that he will do nothing to discourage them while continuing the empty rhetoric of unification.


I suspect you're right about the empty rhetoric of unification. But maybe one of the appeals of Trump is that he is so transparent. For example, his first reaction to the riots against his presidency ("reject, reject, the president elect". Very catchy.) was the usual early morning Tweet mocking them. But about three hours later that was followed by a phony baloney "we're all Americans" style conciliatory tweet. You can practically see the cogs turning. "Oh s**t! I forgot. It's conciliation now!"). Maybe people like that. Maybe people think that an obvious monster is better than a hard to fathom human being.

Anyway, perhaps the biggest concern is that when he gets bored of the whole thing it's the gargoyles that we all thought were consigned to history (Palin, Giuliani, etc) who will ensure that the madness he promised during the campaign is followed through.

-- Updated November 13th, 2016, 9:00 pm to add the following --

There is a big difference between a one off business deal that you can walk away from when it fails and refuse to pay your creditors and contractors, it is quite another to establish long lasting relationships with other nations. Trump is very good at creating shiny surfaces and so, it may be that what appears to the American people to be good deals with other nations will lead to lasting distrust and bad will or he will sell the farm, giving up too much in exchange for appearances. If the public becomes aware of it in good conman fashion he will have already disappeared or will dangle another shiny object that he promises to be bigger and better - “huge and terrific, believe me” before their eyes.


Well, I think that Trump's view on international relations is essentially the same as Putin's. It is based not on friendship or shared moral values, but simply on respect for each other's power to harm the other. There are no values. Only interests.

Perhaps, whether or not he does try to dangle another shiny object in front of the voters, the pendulum will just inevitably swing back the other way. A few years from now, the intellectual, thoughtful, analytical approach to government will be back in fashion. Maybe.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#7  Postby Fooloso4 » November 13th, 2016, 4:25 pm

Dolphin42:

But about three hours later that was followed by a phony baloney "we're all Americans" style conciliatory tweet. You can practically see the cogs turning. "Oh s**t! I forgot. It's conciliation now!").


His handlers in action. But this is typical of Trump, to respond impulsively and then after the tantrum try to make it go away. He really needs a good nanny. I suspect the one he had as a child was traumatized by his tyranny over her. A childish monster with impulse control issues then and a childish monster with impulse control issues now. Whether that is really what the people wanted that is what they are going to get.

Well, I think that Trump's view on international relations is essentially the same as Putin's. It is based not on friendship or shared moral values, but simply on respect for each other's power to harm the other. There are no values. Only interests.


I agree, but international relations are not like a one shot business deal where the other side gets the short end of the stick. Their interests must be honored as well, and if they are simply overpowered relations will deteriorate. The Russians do not have a thriving economy in part because of their inability to deal in the global marketplace.

Perhaps, whether or not he does try to dangle another shiny object in front of the voters, the pendulum will just inevitably swing back the other way. A few years from now, the intellectual, thoughtful, analytical approach to government will be back in fashion. Maybe.


The problem as I see it is not just Trump, it is the people he is putting in power around him and their stated agenda. This will have a lasting effect - the Supreme Court, repealing Obamacare, repealing environmental regulations, the consequences of tax breaks to the rich … How long will it take to fix the mess?
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#8  Postby Dolphin42 » November 13th, 2016, 4:45 pm

Repealing environmental regulations - reversing the Paris climate deal just days after it was agreed - will possibly be among the most devastating and difficult to fix.

I agree, but international relations are not like a one shot business deal where the other side gets the short end of the stick. Their interests must be honored as well, and if they are simply overpowered relations will deteriorate. The Russians do not have a thriving economy in part because of their inability to deal in the global marketplace.


I think this is illustrated starkly if you read the short document in which Trump's team sets out how they intend to extort the wall building funds out of the Mexican government. It has a certain brutal logic to it. Although, I'm no lawyer, but I suspect that creating a law and then offering not to enforce it if the alleged perpetrator pays a large ransom is frowned upon outside of mafia circles.

But the main lack of understanding betrayed in that document is of human nature. It fails to understand that if you say to someone "give me loads of money or I'll starve you family" they won't simply, coolly weigh this up and conclude that they have to pay. They will fight, even if it damages them. A country which says that it doesn't ever pay ransoms to terrorists knows this. It knows why you don't reward extortion with payment. Trump's team, apparently, don't.

-- Updated November 13th, 2016, 9:57 pm to add the following --

In case anybody hasn't seen it, here is the document which briefly sets out the wall money extortion plan:

https://assets.donaldjtrump.com/Pay_for_the_Wall.pdf
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#9  Postby Alec Smart » November 13th, 2016, 5:39 pm

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: Maybe I'm wrong

Well they say old habits die hard.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#10  Postby Grunth » November 15th, 2016, 4:33 am

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:Trump will become President?


Yes.

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: I still don't see him becoming president but then again, the people of the USA may disappoint me, which would be a real tragedy.


You being disappointed will be a real tragedy? Ah, no.

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:Maybe I'm wrong all the way and US citizens are just p***y grabber lovers or p***y grabber tolerant? I don't know. I am not ready to concede it to him yet.


Have you never grabbed a p***y that is offered up to you by the p***y owner for grabbing? Now that's a tragedy for you. Jealousy perhaps?

Consensual sex play seems to irk some or many. Sure, we don't need to hear about it anymore than having someone's toilet habits explained. But then it was secretly recorded and publicly distributed just like your usual slut shaming porn. If I was secretly recorded taking a dump and then having the recording publicly distributed, I know who the real offenders are.

My private taking a of dump, by the way, was a consensual agreement I had between particular ablutions and natural body functions. Yeah, like consensual sex-play between two or more people.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#11  Postby Dolphin42 » November 15th, 2016, 5:52 am

Remember the old tongue twister?

I'm not a p***y grabber, I'm a p***y grabber's son, and I'm only grabbing p***y till the p***y grabber comes.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#12  Postby Grunth » November 15th, 2016, 6:06 am

Dolphin42 wrote:Remember the old tongue twister?

I'm not a p***y grabber, I'm a p***y grabber's son, and I'm only grabbing p***y till the p***y grabber comes.

Be careful with that tongue, now. Within that one post it came into close proximity with p***y.

-- Updated November 15th, 2016, 11:34 pm to add the following --

Dolphin42 wrote: the Trump plan to extract wall-building costs from the Mexican government. Their weakness is the money sent back to poor families by Mexican undocumented workers.

Well, that is basically why Mexico will encourage border jumpers. It is a boost to their economy without themselves having to grow it for themselves.

What do you think happens to a border jumper from the US to Mexico? Well, a minimum 6 months in jail.

-- Updated November 15th, 2016, 11:35 pm to add the following --

Is Mexico regarded as racist for jailing border jumpers?
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#13  Postby Ormond » November 15th, 2016, 5:37 pm

Dolphin42 wrote:Let's enter the world as ruled by Trump.


He's already told you about his world. If one is a celebrity, one can grope women and get away with it. Quite a few women have verified his sincerity on this point many more were probably too fearful to tell their own Trump encounter stories. Think of an iceberg, with most of the story submerged below the surface.

I appreciate that you're trying to be intelligent, reasonable and analytical, and it's surely true that is usually the appropriate approach on a philosophy forum. But such a detached procedure is sadly not relevant in completely insane situations such as when millions of people vote to give a bragging groping pervert our nuclear launch codes.

A better question to build your thread upon might be something like....

"Does anyone here know how to build a truck bomb?"

Point being, it's not logical to assume that logic is the answer to everything.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#14  Postby Dolphin42 » November 15th, 2016, 7:10 pm

I don't think it's the fact that he's a sexual predator which is a cause for concern regarding the nuclear launch codes. They've been in the hands of sexual predators before. During a particularly worrisome missile crisis at one point. I think there are other personality traits that are of concern there.

I presume you buy a truck and fill it with explosives.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post Number:#15  Postby Empiricist-Bruno » November 15th, 2016, 7:33 pm

Grunt,
I have good advice to give you but I suspect that somehow it would be of little use to you for I apparently stand to low in your esteem. So listen to my bad advice instead:...and thanks for paying close attention and being an enthusiastic critic of what I have to say. Together we will make this country great again.

I hope this helps.

-- Updated November 15th, 2016, 8:00 pm to add the following --

Ho and isn't consensual grabbing an oxymoron, like consensual rape? Where I'm from we had another famous guy, Ian Ghomeshi, who tried to convince people that his sex beatings of women were okay because he believed they had agreed to it. No, I'm definitely not envious of behaving in any way that may be unpleasant to the other, even if I have permission. This election makes me realize that perhaps this is the opinion of the majority as well since Hillary got more votes. But I also understand that politically the US may now have voted to support the consensual assault. Ghomeshi may want to head south now.
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