Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

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Grunth
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Grunth »

Dolphin42 wrote:Uncomfortable? What could you possibly mean?

As I said, if you have a criminal allegation to make, make it. S**t or get off the bucket.

-- Updated November 17th, 2016, 8:15 am to add the following --

Bucket vacated?

Grunth:
People can make up their own mind about what they see in vid. You think Biden is a sweetie, I think, from seeing vids, otherwise.
Using your incisive ability to cut through the competing narratives and find the truth, that you have boasted about before, was it the captions, starting at 1 minute 24 seconds, that swung it for you? (See link below for video posted, for a second time in these forums, by Grunth.) Do you think those captions serve a serious purpose, or were they just a "hilarious joke"? All part of the fun?

onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/viewtop ... 85#p278585

Is this the brave new world of hacker journalism to which you've told us we can all look forward? To replace those old liars in the Marxist mainstream media?

Are you enjoying this? I promised you I'd do it again.
The captions were obviously a joke.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Is that all you've got?!?

Pretty incisive.

-- Updated November 17th, 2016, 8:45 am to add the following --

So is the whole video "obviously only a joke"? Or just the captions which allege that this man made sexually explicit remarks to a 13 year old?

How would you feel if somebody made a joke like that about you anonymously and posted it online? A good laugh? Do you have any children? Do you understand what a serious accusation this is?
Grunth
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Grunth »

Dolphin42 wrote:Is that all you've got?!?

Pretty incisive.

-- Updated November 17th, 2016, 8:45 am to add the following --

So is the whole video "obviously only a joke"? Or just the captions which allege that this man made sexually explicit remarks to a 13 year old?

How would you feel if somebody made a joke like that about you anonymously and posted it online? A good laugh? Do you have any children? Do you understand what a serious accusation this is?
So you have not accused Trump of assaulting women?

Your butt is soo hurt. Oh well, alert the authorities about me, won't you.

-- Updated November 17th, 2016, 9:20 pm to add the following --

Creepy Biden enabler!

-- Updated November 17th, 2016, 9:24 pm to add the following --

Here you go, no captions. Just some groovy funk music straight from Biden's music collection.
-- Updated November 17th, 2016, 9:27 pm to add the following --

Did you notice Hillary trying to get out of his grasp? He refuses to take the hint.

-- Updated November 17th, 2016, 9:33 pm to add the following --

The pat on the arm she gives is like in wrestling when you concede to your opponent holding you down.

Females, if they viewed these signs, should get it. I think you are desensitized to the plight of women who find themselves in this type of monkey-male power play.

-- Updated November 17th, 2016, 9:42 pm to add the following --
Dolphin42 wrote:Biden video? Come on. It's my favourite.
Careful what you wish for, I suppose.

-- Updated November 17th, 2016, 10:07 pm to add the following --
Dolphin42 wrote:

You forgot to re-post the Biden video. Go on. Do it. If you're good, you might get another "you make me sick" tantrum out of me.
I aim to please by fulfilling wishes.
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Empiricist-Bruno
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Grunth wrote:Be afraid. Be very afraid. Ha ha!
Grunth, was this a message for me, Queue Moderator Empiricist-Bruno?

Before you answer, I want you to know that I can, as queue moderator, issue a warning to anyone (which stays on your record), and if Scott does decide to put all your posts up for moderation before they are published then I would have a chance to delete them before anyone else decides to approve of them.

Also, you should know that I am known for missing the point on jokes that people say.

So, what do you say? Should I really be afraid? You want to see me fear? Ha! Ha!

It may well be time to send the Boogeyman after Trump and his minority of supporters.

-- Updated November 17th, 2016, 2:00 pm to add the following --

I just googled Boogeyman to see who it is that might be sent there way. I looked up the images and guess who was pictured there? Yep, Donald Trump.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
Grunth
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Grunth »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
Grunth wrote:Be afraid. Be very afraid. Ha ha!
Grunth, was this a message for me, Queue Moderator Empiricist-Bruno?

Before you answer, I want you to know that I can, as queue moderator, issue a warning to anyone (which stays on your record), and if Scott does decide to put all your posts up for moderation before they are published then I would have a chance to delete them before anyone else decides to approve of them.

Also, you should know that I am known for missing the point on jokes that people say.

So, what do you say? Should I really be afraid? You want to see me fear? Ha! Ha!

It may well be time to send the Boogeyman after Trump and his minority of supporters.

-- Updated November 17th, 2016, 2:00 pm to add the following --

I just googled Boogeyman to see who it is that might be sent there way. I looked up the images and guess who was pictured there? Yep, Donald Trump.
I don't think I need to question the fact that a 'queue moderator' can be someone who also does not have a sense of humor, cannot take criticism, cannot accept certain facts, cannot accept others may disagree with them, can be prone to sounding like a bully against freedom of expression and free speech, and be someone who posts falsehoods while trying to pass them off as somehow true.

-- Updated November 18th, 2016, 10:18 am to add the following --

Remember, you posted here as merely another poster arguing with other posters. Bringing into a debate some position you might hold to use as a threat can seem dictatorial and have fascist implications.

-- Updated November 18th, 2016, 10:34 am to add the following --
Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
Grunth wrote:Be afraid. Be very afraid. Ha ha!
Grunth, was this a message for me, Queue Moderator Empiricist-Bruno?

Before you answer, I want you to know that I can, as queue moderator, issue a warning to anyone (which stays on your record), and if Scott does decide to put all your posts up for moderation before they are published then I would have a chance to delete them before anyone else decides to approve of them.
On your actual question 'was this for me?'

Was it, Bruno?

It sounds to me that you would not have threatened my free speech if my post had been specifically directed at someone other than yourself, like some other member who was not a 'queue moderator'.

For the record, including what apparently 'stays' on my record (do you get a record too?), those I have been disagreeing with on this topic, and related topics, have all indicated being afraid and scared of this Trump victory over their preference for president.

Are you not aware, by the way, of the meaning of totalitarianism?

-- Updated November 18th, 2016, 4:21 pm to add the following --
Empiricist-Bruno wrote:

It may well be time to send the Boogeyman after Trump and his minority of supporters.
Seems to imply leftist goon squads. I've had actual experiences with such people in the past. They don't like open debate either and like trying to intimidate using language, along with body-language, infused with implications towards violence.

They can be entertaining though.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Apex_Predator »

Lets examine the “Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism” By Dr. Lawrence Britt and compare to Trump.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism – Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

– Check mark for Trump. Make America Great Again is not just a patriotic motto, its nearing religious fervor in its repetition.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights – Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

– Check mark for Trump, agenda is to bring torture back and ban refugees.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause – The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

-Check mark for Trump. Muslims, liberals, Mexicans, the mainstream media and political opponents themselves were all rallied against in a unifying patriotic frenzy to eliminate a threat.

4. Supremacy of the Military – Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

– Check mark for trump, who wants to increase military spending, in a country that already obliterates every other nation on earth in military spending.

5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

– Check mark for Trump on Rampant sexism. Gamer gate, rape culture, and promoting masculinity on a level this country hasn’t seen is all on the agenda for Trump and his base. The only thing here Trump ignores is divorce. Probably because he’s been divorced so many times, but I don’t really think that suppressing divorce is a part of sexism.

6. Controlled Mass Media – Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

– Check mark for Trump. While not even in power, reporters are scared and have been threatened not only by Trump himself, but his foaming at the mouth feverish base. The calls that “CNN Sucks” while lashing out in violent rhetoric towards media members at their rallies. Intimidation tactics are used, some supporters are harassing them on their personal time. The goal, to show hate. The outcome, suppression, unless the reporter is brave enough to wade through the poo being slung at them.

7. Obsession with National Security – Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

-Check for Trump. Extreme vetting, the unconstitutional stop and frisk, While you are more likely to be shot by a cop than a Muslim terrorist, the people are paranoid and fear Muslim terrorists. Right wing extremists in the U.S. nearly paralleled the deaths caused by Muslim terrorists. You just don’t hear about them as often.

http://www.newsweek.com/…/right-wing-extremists

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

– Check mark for Trump. Trump stated “We will restore faith to its proper mantle in our society. That’s what we have to do. And we have to do that soon. (Applause) We will respect and defend Christian Americans. Christian Americans. We will give parents control over their schools. So important. We’ll uphold the values our founders gave us, which we’re not doing now.”)

9. Corporate Power is Protected – The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite

-Check mark for Trump, tax cuts to the wealthiest “people” of all time, in a world where the rich have exponentially increased wealth over everyone else while not trickling down the gains to the people in jobs and salary.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed – Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

– Trump does not get #10. Not a crucial aspect of fascism

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts – Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

-Checkmark for Trump. Academia is the liberal enemy, the well educated well read media is the enemy. Trump’s dialogue reeks of lies, conspiracy theories and anti intellectualism. “I have the best words”. “No puppet, you’re the puppet!” “I know more about ISIS than the generals”. All big red flags.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment – Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Check mark for Trump – “I am the law and order candidate”. Stop and Frisk. A vengeful intolerance towards anyone opposing him. Essentially, clamoring fervently to jail their political opponent before they are found to be guilty of any crime, even by a pro Trump FBI, is a crucial essence of fascism.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption – Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

-Check mark for Trump so far. Only those loyal to Trump are getting in the administration.

14. Fraudulent Elections – Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

-Not a check mark for Trump, but ironically the call that the elections were essentially is fraudulent if he loses, makes this one pretty damn close.
Grunth
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Grunth »

Apex_Predator wrote:Lets examine the “Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism” By Dr. Lawrence Britt and compare to Trump.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism – Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

– Check mark for Trump. Make America Great Again is not just a patriotic motto, its nearing religious fervor in its repetition.
That would mean practically every election campaign by any party in history would mean all parties are fascists.
Apex_Predator wrote:2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights – Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

– Check mark for Trump, agenda is to bring torture back and ban refugees.
He wants refugees checked properly, not banned.
Apex_Predator wrote:3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause – The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

-Check mark for Trump. Muslims, liberals, Mexicans, the mainstream media and political opponents themselves were all rallied against in a unifying patriotic frenzy to eliminate a threat.
Just change the words to conservatives and free marketeers, oh, and call white Trump voters and independent journalists and news media organizations 'white supremacists'.

Muslims? No, just the not-conforming-to-constitutional-principle ones. Mexicans? No, just the illegal border crossing ones along with the illegals committing crimes beyond the crime which is illegal border crossing.

It is quite true that the mainstream media rallied behind Clinton and against Trump. Evidence is overwhelming, and they are still at it........like you.
Apex_Predator wrote:4. Supremacy of the Military – Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

– Check mark for trump, who wants to increase military spending, in a country that already obliterates every other nation on earth in military spending.
If you have a military make it more 'supreme' than other's military. Not a good idea, for example, to look at the Russian military and then make sure your one is less than and more disorganized.

Glamorized? What does Hollywood have to do with Trump?
Apex_Predator wrote:5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

– Check mark for Trump on Rampant sexism. Gamer gate, rape culture, and promoting masculinity on a level this country hasn’t seen is all on the agenda for Trump and his base. The only thing here Trump ignores is divorce. Probably because he’s been divorced so many times, but I don’t really think that suppressing divorce is a part of sexism.
You are reaching yet again here. Rape culture? I wasn't aware of Trump policies toward legalizing rape. I think you are confused with tribal councils of Pakistan.

Masculinity promotion? Oh, you mean he is a male? We should transgenderize him (similar to female genital mutilation that is carried out in some other cultures).

Homosexuality suppression? Not seen any policy on this. Feel free to paste it here.


Apex_Predator wrote:6. Controlled Mass Media – Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

– Check mark for Trump. While not even in power, reporters are scared and have been threatened not only by Trump himself, but his foaming at the mouth feverish base. The calls that “CNN Sucks” while lashing out in violent rhetoric towards media members at their rallies. Intimidation tactics are used, some supporters are harassing them on their personal time. The goal, to show hate. The outcome, suppression, unless the reporter is brave enough to wade through the poo being slung at them.
You are deceived by the news organizations you listen to. You know? Those ones who tried really, really hard to help Hillary?
Apex_Predator wrote:7. Obsession with National Security – Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

-Check for Trump. Extreme vetting, the unconstitutional stop and frisk, While you are more likely to be shot by a cop than a Muslim terrorist, the people are paranoid and fear Muslim terrorists. Right wing extremists in the U.S. nearly paralleled the deaths caused by Muslim terrorists. You just don’t hear about them as often.

http://www.newsweek.com/…/right-wing-extremists
Fences make for good neighbors.

Stop and frisk in high crime areas helps create safety for everyone. Stopping and frisking someone is NOT arresting someone.

Right wing extremists paralleling Muslim terrorists on deaths of Americans? Where is your stats?

Also, the amount of Muslim terrorists which have been intercepted, BEFORE carrying out the acts they were planning, were substantial. Consequently they do not feature in deaths, fortunately.
Apex_Predator wrote:8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

– Check mark for Trump. Trump stated “We will restore faith to its proper mantle in our society. That’s what we have to do. And we have to do that soon. (Applause) We will respect and defend Christian Americans. Christian Americans. We will give parents control over their schools. So important. We’ll uphold the values our founders gave us, which we’re not doing now.”)
The Constitution, therefore 'the founders', has been undermined by many of the last few administrations, and more particularly under Obama.

The context for his 'restore faith' words? It depends on what he was specifically referring to, which you have not provided here.
Apex_Predator wrote:9. Corporate Power is Protected – The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite

-Check mark for Trump, tax cuts to the wealthiest “people” of all time, in a world where the rich have exponentially increased wealth over everyone else while not trickling down the gains to the people in jobs and salary.
You are sounding like a Marxist. There will always be wealthier people. It is what makes many actually try to do things, rather than just sit around and moan (like dependent babies missing a teat).
Apex_Predator wrote:10. Labor Power is Suppressed – Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

– Trump does not get #10. Not a crucial aspect of fascism
He has stated he wants jobs for the labor workers of America. 'Power' for those with jobs is the power they get from having a job. Power to live and play.
Apex_Predator wrote:11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts – Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

-Checkmark for Trump. Academia is the liberal enemy, the well educated well read media is the enemy. Trump’s dialogue reeks of lies, conspiracy theories and anti intellectualism. “I have the best words”. “No puppet, you’re the puppet!” “I know more about ISIS than the generals”. All big red flags.
Where was Trump against 'The Arts'? Show me his statements then.

Academia is failing their students. Too many silly and ultimately meaningless course subjects, possibly targeted at dependent baby teat seekers because their hapless left-leaning (therefore dumb) parents will pay anything to get them out of the house and into campuses. 'Too much whinging at home for me, go do that at school.......I'll pay'.
Apex_Predator wrote:12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment – Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Check mark for Trump – “I am the law and order candidate”. Stop and Frisk. A vengeful intolerance towards anyone opposing him. Essentially, clamoring fervently to jail their political opponent before they are found to be guilty of any crime, even by a pro Trump FBI, is a crucial essence of fascism.
Stop and frisk is due to intolerance of his opponents? [ad hominem removed on report]

Hillary's cronyism with State-justice employees is the only reason she has not been indicted. She can be seen lying under oath before congress over and over. You appear to have not watched congressional hearings.

Law and order is THE most important thing a government should be concerned with because it is about everybody's security and therefore liberty.
Apex_Predator wrote:13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption – Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

-Check mark for Trump so far. Only those loyal to Trump are getting in the administration.
Loyal to the ideologue of the leadership is, of course, to be expected and is absolutely reasonable. If one is a constitutionalist, then it should be fine. Every administration expects adherents to their causes.
Apex_Predator wrote:14. Fraudulent Elections – Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

-Not a check mark for Trump, but ironically the call that the elections were essentially is fraudulent if he loses, makes this one pretty damn close.
Plenty of evidence of voter fraud by the Democrats. Heard of Project Veritas? Have you seen the HBO documentary 'Hacking Democracy'?
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Burning ghost »

Fascist? We'll see.

He certainly makes fascist remarks and the people who speak for him seem to outline the possibility of fascist actions being taken by the government.

I think every governemnt has some element of "fascism" it is a product of political influence. I already regarded the US as being more fascist than other othrr countries in the west.

By nature all governing bodies are at least partly "fascist". To present some ideology as more "right" or "left" is always taken from a relative position. If civil rights are being compromised then people will say its moving towards a kind of "fascism".

Mentions of muslim registers and internment camps do certainly give cause for concern. Given the the terrible "news" coverage in the US this gives even more cause for concern.

I think it is best if people generally stop fighting for this side or that side and try very hard to take a step back and reflect on what is being said and who is saying it. The context the inept US news media is framing its "news" in is often skewed and leaning towards one side or another. I don't think there is division only a national tradition of division in order to "compete". Competition is good when needed. I see no need to compete only a need to protect and preserve basic civil rights and demand they are enforced.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Burning ghost:

You seem to be saying that any government which places any restrictions on the population for reasons of what they would say is national security has an element of fascism. And, as another example, we could also argue that any society in which there are any collectively owned services or assets, and any taxes imposed, has elements of socialism. Perhaps there are lots of -isms that apply, to varying extents, to almost any government.

The trouble is, doesn't that tend to drain those -isms of their significance? Categories and labels can be misleading and misused, but we still use them because we have to do so in order to say anything meaningful about the world. We have to make generalizations. The world is complex, with no no naturally existing, objectively positioned, dividing lines. We add the dividing lines, in our reductionist way, to manage the complexity.

So maybe it's best to keep the dividing line representing that word "fascist" at the extreme end of the spectrum, and use it sparingly, so as not to dilute it to the point where it loses its power?
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Londoner »

I think what characterises fascism is that it opposes. That it sees the world as a struggle between us and them. If that is your fundamental view then it excuses any amount of lies and brutality, since there is no such thing as the general good, there is only 'good for us'.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Grunth »

Trump: "Fascism is amazing and it will be a beautiful thing, let me tell ya".
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Burning ghost »

I was trying to highlight that we are talking about spectra not hard cast definitions. There are certainly many things that point towards fascism, but we'll have to wait and see. Socialist and fascist ideas may be employed to help a nation. A fascist idea does not mean "fascism" and a "socialist" idea does not mean "socialism". I am from the UK where health care is free, which is a "socialist" idea. I admit that "fascism" is a more extreme view, an extreme authoritarian nationalism, which does not mean "nationalism" is bad.

I can see clearly that in the US media they like to attach extreme labels to views that are not completely one dimensional.

There is a problem when governments are described by bipolar terms rather than looking at the whole picture. The world is complex so making generalisations does not mean such generalisations reflect the reality only make it easier to spoon feed to those you wish to indoctrinate. Just slapping a "fascist" label on one or two isolated comments does not make the person who said them a "fascist", it does highlight something that could possibily veer towards full blown fascism though.

I worry that due to media influence many terms have lost there gravitas and there are is increasing misrepresentations and misinterpretations due to colloquial uses as opposed to technical usage. Even technical terms are more and more fragmented due to reductionist techniques employed by political philosophers ans we find terms like weak conservatism, metropolitan liberalism, socialist democracy, democratic nationalism or whatever concoction fits the current political spin on things. An obvious and famous example being antidisestablishmentarianism, which was a strangr kind of label to attach to secularism.

I doubt the general public are political historians or scholars. The political terms we use today are in themselves a far stretch form there origins and they will continue to shift due to the nature of language. Given our globalisation of communications and social media now is probably the best time to come to terms with how definitions are more open than ever to being twisted to fit political needs.

If the question being asked is about whether or not Trump is a fascist then it makes sense to address why such a question is being asked and what motivates us to call something being a "fascist" remark as opposed to actual "fascism". Given the rate of sensationalisation in the media I think it wise to assess how much the poles of the spectra have been shifting and how this can distort the "truth" to favour one party and alienate the other. If one side of the argument is better at shifting the spectra then it will shift in their favour subtley if their opponents react in like manner. This act of rhetoric blinds the public from what is actually going on. This happened in the Brexit too with many people left bemused and unsure of what to actually believe.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Gertie »

If we're playing spot the difference, this book review makes for a fun read :shock:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/books ... .html?_r=2
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Hitler on the treaty of Versailles:

"It's the worst deal ever done in all history. Really terrible. Really horrible. I'm going to replace it with something beautiful. It will be so beautiful folks. You won't believe how beautiful it's going to be folks... "

Emperor Hadrian:

" I'm going to build a wall. And I'm going to make the Scots pay for it. "

All good fun.
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Burning ghost »

Apex_Predator wrote:Lets examine the “Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism” By Dr. Lawrence Britt and compare to Trump.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism – Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

– Check mark for Trump. Make America Great Again is not just a patriotic motto, its nearing religious fervor in its repetition.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights – Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

– Check mark for Trump, agenda is to bring torture back and ban refugees.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause – The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

-Check mark for Trump. Muslims, liberals, Mexicans, the mainstream media and political opponents themselves were all rallied against in a unifying patriotic frenzy to eliminate a threat.

4. Supremacy of the Military – Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

– Check mark for trump, who wants to increase military spending, in a country that already obliterates every other nation on earth in military spending.

5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

– Check mark for Trump on Rampant sexism. Gamer gate, rape culture, and promoting masculinity on a level this country hasn’t seen is all on the agenda for Trump and his base. The only thing here Trump ignores is divorce. Probably because he’s been divorced so many times, but I don’t really think that suppressing divorce is a part of sexism.

6. Controlled Mass Media – Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

– Check mark for Trump. While not even in power, reporters are scared and have been threatened not only by Trump himself, but his foaming at the mouth feverish base. The calls that “CNN Sucks” while lashing out in violent rhetoric towards media members at their rallies. Intimidation tactics are used, some supporters are harassing them on their personal time. The goal, to show hate. The outcome, suppression, unless the reporter is brave enough to wade through the poo being slung at them.

7. Obsession with National Security – Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

-Check for Trump. Extreme vetting, the unconstitutional stop and frisk, While you are more likely to be shot by a cop than a Muslim terrorist, the people are paranoid and fear Muslim terrorists. Right wing extremists in the U.S. nearly paralleled the deaths caused by Muslim terrorists. You just don’t hear about them as often.

http://www.newsweek.com/…/right-wing-extremists

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

– Check mark for Trump. Trump stated “We will restore faith to its proper mantle in our society. That’s what we have to do. And we have to do that soon. (Applause) We will respect and defend Christian Americans. Christian Americans. We will give parents control over their schools. So important. We’ll uphold the values our founders gave us, which we’re not doing now.”)

9. Corporate Power is Protected – The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite

-Check mark for Trump, tax cuts to the wealthiest “people” of all time, in a world where the rich have exponentially increased wealth over everyone else while not trickling down the gains to the people in jobs and salary.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed – Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

– Trump does not get #10. Not a crucial aspect of fascism

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts – Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

-Checkmark for Trump. Academia is the liberal enemy, the well educated well read media is the enemy. Trump’s dialogue reeks of lies, conspiracy theories and anti intellectualism. “I have the best words”. “No puppet, you’re the puppet!” “I know more about ISIS than the generals”. All big red flags.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment – Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Check mark for Trump – “I am the law and order candidate”. Stop and Frisk. A vengeful intolerance towards anyone opposing him. Essentially, clamoring fervently to jail their political opponent before they are found to be guilty of any crime, even by a pro Trump FBI, is a crucial essence of fascism.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption – Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

-Check mark for Trump so far. Only those loyal to Trump are getting in the administration.

14. Fraudulent Elections – Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

-Not a check mark for Trump, but ironically the call that the elections were essentially is fraudulent if he loses, makes this one pretty damn close.
I hate to point this out to Americans here, but ignoring the issue of Trump entirely your country was already particularly "fascist" according to the above definition used.

Military, media bias and such existed previously. Is the US in the dangerous position of slipping over the edge? Is that what you are trying to show Apex or just an unintentional coincidence?
AKA badgerjelly
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