Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

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Fooloso4
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Dolphin42:
It's an interestingly similar problem with religious texts like the Bible or the Koran, because I guess the Constitution is essentially the same thing. The Koran, from the little I've read, gets surprisingly specific in some areas, such as tax law. Still doesn't seem to have protected it from vastly different interpretations though.
The Rabbinic tradition is instructive. It includes the Torah (written Torah (Hebrew Bible) and oral Torah - an explanation of the written Torah) - including the law and commandments, Talmud (Mishnah- written notes on the oral Torah and Gemara - 60 volumes of written record of Rabbinic discussion of Mishnah) , and Midrash (explanation of written Torah).

In other words the is the Law given to Moses by God, commentary on the Law, and commentary on the commentary. Discussion continues in the present. Not to put too fine a point on it but if God’s Law is the perfect law then it is not the law itself that is deficient. No matter how extensive and detailed it is it remains open to interpretation and dispute.
Dolphin42
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Interesting. I guess the equivalent in the Quran/Koran might be regarded as the Hadiths and the Tafsir? Perhaps these extra commentaries, and commentaries on the commentaries, might be regarded as roughly analogous to the amendments to the Constitution. There are also, I've learned, various different school of thought in interpreting the US Constitution that look strikingly similar to schools of thought that exist in those Abrahamic religions in interpreting their respective foundational texts.
Grunth
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Grunth »

Dolphin42 wrote:Interesting. I guess the equivalent in the Quran/Koran might be regarded as the Hadiths and the Tafsir? Perhaps these extra commentaries, and commentaries on the commentaries, might be regarded as roughly analogous to the amendments to the Constitution. There are also, I've learned, various different school of thought in interpreting the US Constitution that look strikingly similar to schools of thought that exist in those Abrahamic religions in interpreting their respective foundational texts.
Well, quote these 'striking similarities' then. Lets see what you say you have. Do you have them?
Fooloso4
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Dolphin42:
Perhaps these extra commentaries, and commentaries on the commentaries, might be regarded as roughly analogous to the amendments to the Constitution.


Case law as well.
Philosch
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Philosch »

How about the stated tactic right in the handbook put out by left wing democratic operatives reported to be lead by former president Obama on how to go and ask for town hall meetings with any and all republicans no matter what their record and opinion is, and pretend to just be a concerned citizen, but then spread out in the audience to make it appear that you represent more people than you do, and then proceed to interrupt and disrupt the republican politician, not allowing them to SPEAK. This is a blatant example of blocking someone's first amendment right to speak by claiming it's your right to do so under the same amendment. This is worse than propaganda as at least with propaganda you can chose to believe or not. Here you have a blatant act involving the deliberate interference of someone's constitutional right to speak! But remember it's deemed okay because the end justifies the means and the end is that you take back power from the current political party.

The mistaken reading of the amendment is clear. Protesters and hecklers believe that the first amendment grants them the right to be heard at the expense of anyone they deem appropriate to block. You have a right to protest until such a protest infringes upon other people's rights under the same amendment and that's the part that's conveniently overlooked.

So pretending that propaganda is just a tool of the right and Trump in particular is to be completely ignorant of history, either that or you are deliberately pretending to be appalled by politicians spinning the truth in the favor. It's such hypocrisy, it's actually mind blowing. I'm not even a republican, I'm a libertarian. It's hard to watch. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Every time a politician stands up and deliberately misleads the public about the record or statements of another politician, you are watching propaganda in action. Both sides do it and do it well. To pretend to be appalled and shocked to think Trump is somehow worse than any of his predecessors is either the height of ignorance or the height of arrogance, take your pick.
Fooloso4
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Philosch
This is a blatant example of blocking someone's first amendment right to speak by claiming it's your right to do so under the same amendment.
This is what the first amendment says:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
A gathering of people not allowing someone to speak is not Congress and is not an example of blocking someone's first amendment right.
This is worse than propaganda as at least with propaganda you can chose to believe or not.
This is what is so pernicious about propaganda. We can choose not to believe the truth but if we cannot distinguish the truth from lies and “fake news” then we cannot choose to believe the truth because we are not able to determine if it is the truth. Yes, if we are diligent we can, but propaganda works because many people choose to believe it without being diligent enough to distinguish truth from lies.
Every time a politician stands up and deliberately misleads the public about the record or statements of another politician, you are watching propaganda in action.
Propaganda is the dissemination or distribution of information. Although the term was originally used in a neutral sense, it is now often used to mean biased information. In general propaganda is a concerted effort to get a specifically tailored message out not a single statement.
Philosch
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Philosch »

You are correct about propaganda technically, I was blurring the standard definition to mean the deliberate misleading of groups of people by information regardless of form. I disagree with you on the speech issue. Regardless of the citation of the amendment, you need to consider how it's been interpreted by the courts over the last century and recognize that when you prevent someone from speaking or in this case performing their sworn duty to convey information, you are at a minimum engaging in illegal behavior even if it's not the first amendment that is the statute being violated (I would argue that it is but no matter). My real point was the misuse of the First Amendment to assert a right to protest in whatever manner you want and how that comes out of the "right to peaceful assembly and to petition the government". The protestors even yell this on the news..."we have a right to be heard" as they shout over and disrupt, push and shove anyone else who wants to be heard. It's indefensible.

It's been generally held that we all have a right to free speech but that right is not universal in that it shall not infringe on another's rights. Can't yell fire maliciously in a crowded theatre as an example.
Fooloso4
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Philosch:
You are correct about propaganda technically, I was blurring the standard definition to mean the deliberate misleading of groups of people by information regardless of form.
When the president says that the mainstream media is the enemy, the attempt is to suppress the flow of information. Propaganda is not just about providing information, it is about controlling the flow of information. In any case, the question Dolphin asked was:
But surely it must be unconstitutional to use the apparatus of government to spread that propaganda?
We are discussing the what the present administration is doing, what is happening now. If another administration used the apparatus of government to spread propaganda the same question could be asked. In my opinion, there is no traction on the issue of constitutionality but we can and should address the benefits and harms of this action.
I disagree with you on the speech issue. Regardless of the citation of the amendment, you need to consider how it's been interpreted by the courts over the last century
Can you cite any case that set this as a precedent? Free speech may be a social ideal but limiting it or suppressing by private individuals is not a violation of the first amendment. I am not aware of any court ruling to the contrary, but I may be wrong so I welcome learning more from you.
Togo1
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Togo1 »

Philosch wrote:How about the stated tactic right in the handbook put out by left wing democratic operatives reported to be lead by former president Obama on how to go and ask for town hall meetings with any and all republicans no matter what their record and opinion is, and pretend to just be a concerned citizen, but then spread out in the audience to make it appear that you represent more people than you do, and then proceed to interrupt and disrupt the republican politician, not allowing them to SPEAK. This is a blatant example of...
It's certainly a blatent example of something. Do you have a source on this Obama handbook?

I suspect you're conflating two unrelated events, advice given by Obama, to organise town halls, and calls made by activists to hold republicans to account by protesting their speeches and rallies.
Philosch
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Philosch »

Fooloso4 wrote:Philosch:
You are correct about propaganda technically, I was blurring the standard definition to mean the deliberate misleading of groups of people by information regardless of form.
When the president says that the mainstream media is the enemy, the attempt is to suppress the flow of information. Propaganda is not just about providing information, it is about controlling the flow of information. In any case, the question Dolphin asked was:
But surely it must be unconstitutional to use the apparatus of government to spread that propaganda?
We are discussing the what the present administration is doing, what is happening now. If another administration used the apparatus of government to spread propaganda the same question could be asked. In my opinion, there is no traction on the issue of constitutionality but we can and should address the benefits and harms of this action.
I disagree with you on the speech issue. Regardless of the citation of the amendment, you need to consider how it's been interpreted by the courts over the last century
Can you cite any case that set this as a precedent? Free speech may be a social ideal but limiting it or suppressing by private individuals is not a violation of the first amendment. I am not aware of any court ruling to the contrary, but I may be wrong so I welcome learning more from you.
So this is just the point. The president didn't say the mainstream media was the enemy. He said fake news was the enemy. But you are going to summarize and filter what you think Trump has said and done to support your overall view. You claiming that it's an attempt to suppress information is just because that's how you want to see it and you are entitled to see it any way you want. I've heard Trump say over and over again he will accept any bad story as long as it's factually correct. That's a perfectly reasonable position to take. I'm not going to argue with you and site every statement I make. I can interpret what I've heard and seen in the current news cycle as well as you can. There are many news outlets that are distorting and pushing stories with little or no substance to them in an attempt to create an outcome more favorable to their political views. That is plain to see. I was watching CNN when they had "Breaking News" flash across the screen. It was in regards to the one web news site that was reporting on the Russians talking with Trump's attorney and hookers and a bunch of other nonsense. CNN was very careful to say they were just reporting on what someone else was saying and they weren't claiming it was true of course. But to break in to your regular programming to report on someone else's ridiculous story and then when it's shown to be nonsense, not report a retraction is just as bad as anything you are accusing Trump of doing. I will admit that Trump has bungled some of his communication. He doesn't speak very coherently. I can see why he gets intellectuals all fired up. But to fail to recognize the sheer overwhelming onslaught by the New York Times and Washington Post to try and manufacture a Watergate type of moment here is to be completely dishonest. They have a visceral dislike of the man and their contempt and disrespect is self evident.
Togo1 wrote:
Philosch wrote:How about the stated tactic right in the handbook put out by left wing democratic operatives reported to be lead by former president Obama on how to go and ask for town hall meetings with any and all republicans no matter what their record and opinion is, and pretend to just be a concerned citizen, but then spread out in the audience to make it appear that you represent more people than you do, and then proceed to interrupt and disrupt the republican politician, not allowing them to SPEAK. This is a blatant example of...
It's certainly a blatent example of something. Do you have a source on this Obama handbook?

I suspect you're conflating two unrelated events, advice given by Obama, to organise town halls, and calls made by activists to hold republicans to account by protesting their speeches and rallies.
I said it was a handbook put out by left wing operatives lead by Obama, didn't say it was Obama's handbook number one, and number two, holding republicans accountable to what and to whom? To people who didn't vote for them in the first place? To people who are not even from their district and sometimes not even from their state? And then do you hold them accountable by badgering them and not allowing to actually speak? That's pure nonsense and you know it.

That's certainly not holding them accountable, it's trying to generate an atmosphere of anger and anxiety, it's an effort to stop an agenda that they don't like. That's fine but don't pretend it's something that it's not. They are apparently separate events accept it's all part of the same game. Listen, this is politics on both sides. Just don't pretend that one side is all on the up and up and the other side is using dirty, under handed and unconstitutional tactics. Both sides are guilty as hell of playing politics, and in politics anything and everything goes.
Fooloso4
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Philosch:
The president didn't say the mainstream media was the enemy. He said fake news was the enemy.
Here is exactly what he said on Twitter:
THE FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes,@CNN, @NBCNews and many more) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American people. SICK!
He amended it to say:
The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS, @CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!
What mainstream outlets are not on the list?

Fox was not included although its audience is large enough to be considered mainstream but Fox positions itself as an alternative and corrective of the mainstream. No other print media was included but Trump admitted that he does not read print journalism.
I was watching CNN when they had "Breaking News" flash across the screen. It was in regards to the one web news site that was reporting on the Russians talking with Trump's attorney and hookers and a bunch of other nonsense. CNN was very careful to say they were just reporting on what someone else was saying and they weren't claiming it was true of course. But to break in to your regular programming to report on someone else's ridiculous story and then when it's shown to be nonsense, not report a retraction is just as bad as anything you are accusing Trump of doing.
First of all, the CNN report was about information the intelligence community presented to Trump regarding allegations made against him. Second, the investigation of the Trump administration’s connection to Russia is ongoing. We do not know if any or all of it was nonsense or ridiculous. What is clear is that the intelligence community thought it important enough to inform him. Third, if there is a connection it an extremely important story. Fourth, there is no need for a retraction since everything they reported was true - the intelligence community did present this information regarding these allegations to Trump.

I assume you were not able to find any support for your claims about how the courts interpreted free speech over the last century.
Philosch
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Philosch »

Fooloso4 wrote:Philosch:
The president didn't say the mainstream media was the enemy. He said fake news was the enemy.
Here is exactly what he said on Twitter:
THE FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes,@CNN, @NBCNews and many more) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American people. SICK!
He amended it to say:
The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS, @CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!
What mainstream outlets are not on the list?

Fox was not included although its audience is large enough to be considered mainstream but Fox positions itself as an alternative and corrective of the mainstream. No other print media was included but Trump admitted that he does not read print journalism.
I was watching CNN when they had "Breaking News" flash across the screen. It was in regards to the one web news site that was reporting on the Russians talking with Trump's attorney and hookers and a bunch of other nonsense. CNN was very careful to say they were just reporting on what someone else was saying and they weren't claiming it was true of course. But to break in to your regular programming to report on someone else's ridiculous story and then when it's shown to be nonsense, not report a retraction is just as bad as anything you are accusing Trump of doing.
First of all, the CNN report was about information the intelligence community presented to Trump regarding allegations made against him. Second, the investigation of the Trump administration’s connection to Russia is ongoing. We do not know if any or all of it was nonsense or ridiculous. What is clear is that the intelligence community thought it important enough to inform him. Third, if there is a connection it an extremely important story. Fourth, there is no need for a retraction since everything they reported was true - the intelligence community did present this information regarding these allegations to Trump.

I assume you were not able to find any support for your claims about how the courts interpreted free speech over the last century.
First of all I assume you are including the list of media to support my case, as he didn't include the AP, BBC, Reuters and Fox as well as others, so you are using the term "Mainstream" because it suits your agenda, period. Your quoted tweet says "fake news" not mainstream so well done. Fox never claims itself as an alternative to "mainstream", it calls itself fair and balanced and while I'm not a Fox news only guy it's interesting how you consider "mainstream" only news organizations that are democrat leaning, pure left wing arrogance to believe that libertarian or conservative news aren't mainstream. Since you like citations read this article and then tell me there's no democrat media bias...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... scarcity-/

And secondly I know al about the CNN story and that the IC reported the allegations to Trump. What the IC reported to Trump was that the allegations were made and that the IC community had determined they were fabricated nonsense and CNN knew this very well and yet failed to include that piece of information in their story because yet again it doesn't fit their agenda. That's by your definition, propaganda since they are trying to create an impression and control the news by not reporting the whole story. They deliberately left that out to create the impression that the allegations might have legs. They even say in their story "we are not sure if these allegations are true or not" which was a flat out bold faced lie. The source that gave them the story told them the report had concluded there was nothing to the allegations. They claimed not to know that until the next day which you and I know is just absolute nonsense. Once they did admit that they still didn't retract or redirect or attempt to correct the impression they created and that is why they get called fake news.

So while I'm not a Trump supporter, nor did I vote for him, the biased reporting that continues to fill the news daily is just ridiculous and I believe you know it. You just hate the guy so much you won't acknowledge it. As far s looking up cases for you I don't have the time or inclination to bother so your assumption is just that, another assumption without weight or justification. You have your agenda set and you may have the time to cherry pick information to try and justify your agenda but I don't feel the need to do so. The situation with the current news media outlets is crystal clear. That includes Fox. Listen to Shepard Smith on Fox, he can't get through a single story without letting his contempt for Trump show through. Let's just have one single news outlet report on the actual happenings in a single day without adding commentary, without gotchas and other biased content. Trump's style is horrible, his rhetorical technique is abhorrent, but when news outlets obviously push agendas rather than news worthy stories they hurt their own ability to be considered guardians of the truth.
Fooloso4
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Philosch:
First of all I assume you are including the list of media to support my case, as he didn't include the AP, BBC, Reuters and Fox as well as others, so you are using the term "Mainstream" because it suits your agenda, period.
Your argument amounts to saying that since the tweet did not include an exhaustive list of the mainstream media that is not what Trump meant. Mainstream media is not a precise term. An attack on mainstream media does not mean an attack on every outlet that might or might not be included on someone’s list.

It has nothing to do with my “agenda.

From Fox News:

foxnews.com/politics/2016/10/19/trump-c ... ebook.html

The story includes the following:
Fed up with the mainstream media, Donald Trump’s campaign launched its own political talk show in a pre-debate Facebook Live event …

The event was billed as an alternative to “biased, mainstream media reporting (otherwise known as Crooked Hillary’s super PAC)”
You can debate whether it is an attack on the mainstream media or on “fake news” but this should not be used to hide the fact that he has called the majority of mainstream sources fake news and has embraced InfoWars as an alternative to fake news.
Since you like citations read this article and then tell me there's no democrat media bias…
Using your logic above there can be no democratic media bias because not ALL media is democratic. The assumption here is that because a journalist is a democrat what he or she reports must be biased, that it is not possible to be objective or honest. It is an assumption that makes truth and objectivity a victim of the pernicious view that everything is a matter of bias and agenda. This is the same kind of argument used against global warming - since the majority of scientists are liberal their scientific findings must be biased. Even assuming that we cannot keep our biases out there is a difference between a biased slant and fake news.
What the IC reported to Trump was that the allegations were made and that the IC community had determined they were fabricated nonsense …
What evidence do you have that the IC had determined that the stories are fabricated nonsense? If they had determined this then why report it to the president?
As far s looking up cases for you I don't have the time or inclination to bother so your assumption is just that, another assumption without weight or justification.
You are the one making the assertion, the onus is on you to back it up. The Constitution is quite clear, it is not an assumption on my part. The fact of the matter is that what you are talking about has nothing to do with the first amendment. Once again, the amendment is about prohibiting Congress from abridging the freedom of speech. Whether any individual, or group, or organization in a private capacity can interfere with the right of free speech by another is not addressed in the amendment and cannot be either supported or rejected by reference to it.
Listen to Shepard Smith on Fox, he can't get through a single story without letting his contempt for Trump show through.
It is not simply a matter of personal dislike. The concern is that he is incompetent to hold office and concern with what he will do and the harm it will cause. If there is good reason to hold these concerns then there is good reason to voice them. There is ample reason to hold them and the reports show why.

-- Updated March 6th, 2017, 10:32 am to add the following --

On the subject of crying wolf: Trump’s tweeted accusation that Obama wiretapped him.
This is wrong on so many levels and further evidence that the man is not fit to hold office.
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Papus79
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Papus79 »

Yes - it's crying wolf.

What you can say about Trump is that he's a populist and has nationalist economic leanings. Fascism is taking that several steps farther into something more akin to a corporatist police state.

A very good Youtube lecture to watch on the topic of Trump is Mark Blythe's 'Global Trumpism'. While on some of his ideas he leans a bit too far left for my tastes he still stays pretty objective and true-to-facts on the economic issues and their import with respect to the way populism has been sweeping Europe at the national election levels before it came to us and this largely came from additional pressures that the European Union was putting on the Southern countries with their inability to use the usual mechanisms a country would use to resolve budget shortfalls. Also yes - the immigration crisis from the wars in Syria and Iraq have been hitting Europe much harder and much more directly than the US - so even northern European countries such as Sweden, and Germany under Merkel, are heading toward populist parties outperforming and ousting the currently ensconced ones.
Dolphin42
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Dolphin42 »

On the subject of crying wolf: Trump’s tweeted accusation that Obama wiretapped him.
This is wrong on so many levels and further evidence that the man is not fit to hold office.
Almost anything can be tuned out and regarded as background noise if it is repeated enough. But as the level of background noise increases and the signal-to-noise ratio decreases, there comes a point where anything can be done and hidden in the noise. I guess that's probably the idea.

I wonder if society will eventually learn to ignore these regular mad tweets? If their purpose is to muddy the waters and serve as a distraction then they'll have to get ever more extreme and absurd, in a kind of rant-hyper-inflation effect.
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