Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

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Steve3007
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Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Steve3007 »

Fooloso4:
The benign interpretation is that “Make America Great Again” means to return to the time before the New Deal or perhaps the Square Deal. If this is correct then this does not undermine the Constitution, although it does make plutocracy a much greater threat.
Is there a particular piece of legislation, or social change, that came in during/after the time of either of the two Roosevelts that can be identified as having reduced the threat of plutocracy and which Trump's actions look likely to undo? Obviously I can see how his desire to remove financial regulations is one thing that could bring on the next version of "collateralized debt obligations" and take us back to 2008. But, on the other hand, he is promising to do the old FDR, New Deal, spending on infrastructure thing.
And in that case we must ask if this promotes or is contrary to the general welfare of the people. If it is contrary to the general welfare then it does undermine the Constitution which has as its express purpose to “promote general welfare”.
Yes, we must. But therein lies the problem of interpreting the Constitution that we've touched on before. The exhortation to "promote general welfare", right there at the start of that document, is about as woolly as it gets. And, as far as I can see, that commandment isn't made any more specific later. Since nobody would expect any such document to command us to "make the people as miserable as possible" it seems to me an almost entirely superfluous things to say (with all due respect, founding fathers). If I were a judge trying to work out whether a piece of proposed legislation meets the requirement to "promote general welfare" I think I would be entirely to free to use my own political leanings to do so. If part of the point of having a judicial branch of government is that they are supposed to be apolitical, or at least less political than the executive and the legislature and more analytical, then that kind of woolly wording makes it pretty difficult. (Not that I could have done any better, I'm sure.)
Trump is free to call the press the enemy of the people, and even though this does not violate the letter of the law, the deliberate attempt to undermine its credibility is contrary to the spirit of the law.
Quite possibly, but same problem as above. As soon as we start claiming that such and such a thing is against the "spirit" of the law or the Constitution then we enter a standard political debate full of political opinion and short on undeniable fact. And our opponent, at the end of it, can simply say "what an interesting opinion".
Trump may be in violation of the emolument clause.
Hopefully the question of whether he is or isn't in violation of that one is a little easier to establish (at least in principle) as a fact which can't so easily be dismissed as just another political opinion among many.
Grunth
Posts: 793
Joined: February 3rd, 2016, 9:48 pm

Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Grunth »

Steve3007 wrote:Fooloso4:
Obviously I can see how his desire to remove financial regulations is one thing that could bring on the next version of "collateralized debt obligations" and take us back to 2008.

Take us back to 2008? Like when the national debt was half of what it came to be in 2016?

To take the level of debt back to that of 2008 would be a remarkable thing in itself.
Dolphin42
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Joined: May 9th, 2012, 8:05 am
Location: The Evening Star

Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Dolphin42 »

On the subject of whether Trump will get away with removing financial protections for the people who voted for him:

ft.com/content/7dec9a66-faa2-11e6-9516- ... 969e0d3b65

This and other articles suggest that when the middle class jobs fail to materialize and when the next financial crisis is precipitated by Trump's removal of the protections that were put in place to stop it, he will prove adept, as he has done so far, at blaming everybody else - the biased media, the Chinese, the previous administration etc. Probably true. But, as Harry Truman will remind him, the buck stops here. People can't vote against the media or the Chinese. If he doesn't deliver for them will the people get rid of him? Or will he, in the style of 1984, be able to convince the electorate that everything is going wonderfully, economic growth is 5%, the wall is built, coal mining jobs are plentiful, the country's infrastructure is now the envy of the world, Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia and any stories to the contrary in the failing media are fake news? I think that might be too much even for Trump.
Fooloso4
Posts: 3601
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Steve:
Is there a particular piece of legislation, or social change, that came in during/after the time of either of the two Roosevelts that can be identified as having reduced the threat of plutocracy and which Trump's actions look likely to undo?
Not that I can think of offhand, but i really do not know much about such things. The breakup of Bell Telephone might have been the last effort to prevent monopolies. What is occurring today may not be considered monopolies by legal definition, but there has been a great deal of consolidation in many industries, with few players, and little or no choice by consumers.
But, on the other hand, he is promising to do the old FDR, New Deal, spending on infrastructure thing.
He has promised to spend on infrastructure, but there are questions about how it will be funded and how jobs will be awarded. Think cronyism.
But therein lies the problem of interpreting the Constitution that we've touched on before. The exhortation to "promote general welfare", right there at the start of that document, is about as woolly as it gets.
I agree in general, but on a case by case basis it is not always so difficult to determine what the general welfare is, it just allows for wiggle room. Trump and Bannon are using the promise of jobs as an excuse to eliminate environmental protection. We might judge the environment to be more important to the general welfare but others might hold that jobs are better for the general welfare. The question of whether the only two options are jobs and pollution are the only two options was not raised. Would the cost of filtration or some other means of disposal make operations prohibitive or would they just cut into profits? And then there is the question of how many jobs. And of the environmental impact and health costs.
Quite possibly, but same problem as above. As soon as we start claiming that such and such a thing is against the "spirit" of the law or the Constitution then we enter a standard political debate full of political opinion and short on undeniable fact. And our opponent, at the end of it, can simply say "what an interesting opinion".
Many in the U.S. are far less sanguine. Two days ago Trump held a press conference and blocked the NYT, CNN, LAT, BBC, Huffington Post, Politico, and others. In their balanced report the NYT did point out that it is not unusual for an administration to single out groups of reporters for special briefings and that Obama had once tried to block Fox. But there is more. Trump said that the use of anonymous sources should not be allowed. This is an opinion until he tries to act on it. Trump is also attacking the FBI. If this is a concerted effort to suppress information regarding Russia’s role in the election then there is a much stronger case that this is a violation of the letter and not just spirit of the Constitution.
Hopefully the question of whether he is or isn't in violation of that one is a little easier to establish (at least in principle) as a fact which can't so easily be dismissed as just another political opinion among many.
He is being sued by several organizations for being in violation of the emolument clause. Even if he is found guilty it is not clear how it will play out.

Dolphin42:
If he doesn't deliver for them will the people get rid of him?
I do not think he would be reelected. There will be some who will be disillusioned and not vote for him. The Democrats will step up their game. They will pick a candidate who is more popular and less polarizing than Clinton. Given the fact that many said they voted against Clinton and the fact that she won the popular vote, it is possible that a more likeable Democrat would have won.
Dolphin42
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Location: The Evening Star

Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Dolphin42 »

And now comes VOICE - "Victims Of Immigration Crime Engagement".

rawstory.com/2017/02/how-genocides-begi ... mmigrants/

Trump appears to be trying to use the apparatus of government (ICE) to selectively publicise crimes committed by immigrants, with no comparison to general levels of crime. Even if it turns out that immigrants commit fewer crimes on average than US-born citizens this will not matter. It will be all the easier to portray them all as violent criminals, as Trump did in his campaign rhetoric. It seems that he really won't be satisfied until he's whipped up a pogrom. Next he'll be ordering government publications to print ugly caricatures and creating propaganda movies portraying them as rats.

As expected, this is getting darker and darker. It's up to Republican members of Congress to stand up to this kind of thing being done in their name.

-- Updated March 1st, 2017, 3:37 pm to add the following --

Trump: "We are providing a voice to those who have been ignored by our media, and silenced by special interests"

It's one thing for Trump to tweet his lies and propaganda about the free press in his own time as a citizen exercising his right to free speech. But surely it must be unconstitutional to use the apparatus of government to spread that propaganda?
Grunth
Posts: 793
Joined: February 3rd, 2016, 9:48 pm

Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Grunth »

Dolphin42 wrote:And now comes VOICE - "Victims Of Immigration Crime Engagement".

rawstory.com/2017/02/how-genocides-begi ... mmigrants/

Trump appears to be trying to use the apparatus of government (ICE) to selectively publicise crimes committed by immigrants, with no comparison to general levels of crime. Even if it turns out that immigrants commit fewer crimes on average than US-born citizens this will not matter. It will be all the easier to portray them all as violent criminals, as Trump did in his campaign rhetoric. It seems that he really won't be satisfied until he's whipped up a pogrom. Next he'll be ordering government publications to print ugly caricatures and creating propaganda movies portraying them as rats.

As expected, this is getting darker and darker. It's up to Republican members of Congress to stand up to this kind of thing being done in their name.

-- Updated March 1st, 2017, 3:37 pm to add the following --

Trump: "We are providing a voice to those who have been ignored by our media, and silenced by special interests"

It's one thing for Trump to tweet his lies and propaganda about the free press in his own time as a citizen exercising his right to free speech. But surely it must be unconstitutional to use the apparatus of government to spread that propaganda?
No, not "immigrants" who commit crimes. It is for targeting illegal immigrants who commit crimes. As the link you provided reads "removable aliens". Why are such "aliens" regarded as removable? Because they have entered the country by illegal means. You are being 'fake news'.

As for this, "Next he'll be ordering government publications to print ugly caricatures and creating propaganda movies portraying them as rats", you are saying it as if it will happen. You should more honestly own your own paranoia by stating it as your personal fear.

This is all your propaganda.
Philosch
Posts: 429
Joined: July 25th, 2012, 3:42 pm

Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Philosch »

Dolphin42 wrote:And now comes VOICE - "Victims Of Immigration Crime Engagement".

Trump appears to be trying to use the apparatus of government (ICE) to selectively publicise crimes committed by immigrants, with no comparison to general levels of crime. Even if it turns out that immigrants commit fewer crimes on average than US-born citizens this will not matter. It will be all the easier to portray them all as violent criminals, as Trump did in his campaign rhetoric. It seems that he really won't be satisfied until he's whipped up a pogrom. Next he'll be ordering government publications to print ugly caricatures and creating propaganda movies portraying them as rats.

As expected, this is getting darker and darker. It's up to Republican members of Congress to stand up to this kind of thing being done in their name.

It's one thing for Trump to tweet his lies and propaganda about the free press in his own time as a citizen exercising his right to free speech. But surely it must be unconstitutional to use the apparatus of government to spread that propaganda?
It's only unconstitutional if you are a republican or conservative. Otherwise if you are a liberal democrat it's fine. Just like suppressing freedom of speech is okay if you are a liberal democrat but a violation of the first amendment in any other circumstance.
Dolphin42
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Philosch:
It's only unconstitutional if you are a republican or conservative. Otherwise if you are a liberal democrat it's fine.
Could you back this up. Point me to an example where a Democrat president has used the apparatus of the government to spread propaganda about a section of society with the purpose of demonizing them, and which we now think is "fine".
Just like suppressing freedom of speech is okay if you are a liberal democrat but a violation of the first amendment in any other circumstance.
Could you back this up. Point me to an example where a liberal democrat has suppressed freedom of speech and it is regarded as "okay".
Fooloso4
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Dolphin42:
But surely it must be unconstitutional to use the apparatus of government to spread that propaganda?
This is another example of where interpretation comes into question. One might argue that it is contrary to the stated goal in the Preamble to: establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, but the propaganda spins it so that such actions protect and promote these goals.

It incites and fuels a mob mentality and vigilantism. The fact of the matter is that vigilantes do not first ascertain whether someone is an alien let alone an undocumented alien before attacking. Those who look and sound different are being threatened. No doubt the white supremacists are delighted but even those who are not may be led to believe they are doing their patriotic duty by eliminating a threat. I think you right to see it as a step in the direction of a state sponsored pogrom. It is the classic demagogic tactic of providing a scapegoat that is the source of the threat to our physical, economic, and moral well being.
Dolphin42
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Fooloso4:
This is another example of where interpretation comes into question. One might argue that it is contrary to the stated goal in the Preamble to: establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, but the propaganda spins it so that such actions protect and promote these goals.
Yes, this is another example which brings up the question of how specific a Constitution ought to be. If it is specific enough that it cannot be spun as you've described then it is in danger of becoming outdated and anachronistic. But if it protects itself from becoming outdated by sticking to general principles that are considered to be timeless truths then people with diametrically opposing views on how society ought to be run can all make plausible sounding claims that they are not violating it.

It's an interestingly similar problem with religious texts like the Bible or the Koran, because I guess the Constitution is essentially the same thing. The Koran, from the little I've read, gets surprisingly specific in some areas, such as tax law. Still doesn't seem to have protected it from vastly different interpretations though.
Grunth
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Grunth »

Fooloso4 wrote: It is the classic demagogic tactic of providing a scapegoat that is the source of the threat to our physical, economic, and moral well being.
So it is the classic demagogic tactic to try what one can to catch and deport illegal aliens ("removable aliens", according to the link which inspired dolphin) who commit crimes upon GENUINE immigrants and all other US citizens?

Many LEGAL immigrants do not like being tarred with the same brush as illegal immigrants, particularly with illegal aliens who commit crimes beyond their crime of entering the US illegally. It is the anti-trumpers who do this broad tar brushing. Consequently it is the anti-trumpers tactic to devalue legal immigrants from Mexico and other countries by fogging the distinction between illegal and legal immigration.

This fogging tactic, this propaganda, of fogging this distinction, is a deliberate tactic of the mainstream media.

-- Updated March 2nd, 2017, 12:41 pm to add the following --
Dolphin42 wrote:

It's an interestingly similar problem with religious texts like the Bible or the Koran, because I guess the Constitution is essentially the same thing.
The US Constitution is the same thing as the Koran? Yeah right.
Dolphin42
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Fooloso4:
It incites and fuels a mob mentality and vigilantism...
The disturbing thing about this VOICE idea is the explicit intent to use half-truths to deliberately paint a distorted picture. In deliberately deciding only to report crimes committed by undocumented aliens, it knows what it is doing. It shows a cynical knowledge of how to whip up hatred. Trump and Bannon know that they don't need to tell the truth. When Conway's bowling green massacre reference was called out as fiction that didn't stop a large proportion of Trump supporters still seeing that fiction as one of the reasons to support him.

It also seems to be another example of the technique of goading "liberals" into protesting, in the knowledge that all publicity is good publicity.
Grunth
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Joined: February 3rd, 2016, 9:48 pm

Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Grunth »

Dolphin42 wrote:Philosch:
It's only unconstitutional if you are a republican or conservative. Otherwise if you are a liberal democrat it's fine.
Could you back this up. Point me to an example where a Democrat president has used the apparatus of the government to spread propaganda about a section of society with the purpose of demonizing them, and which we now think is "fine".
.
If Trump "demonized" illegal immigrants then I suppose Obama, and Bill Clinton before him, did also.
Dolphin42
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Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Grunth:
A coup/civil war will be launched by those who are scared to totally lose their power and influence and to prevent exposure of the frauds they had been operating. The coup organizers are trying to keep out of jail. Obama is such a organizer as this, but if or when a civil war begins I guarantee he will be trying to call the shots from somewhere like Bahrain. These psychopaths won't risk their own lives.
Grunth:
Richard Branson could keep Obama company, maybe even provide some boys for him.
Grunth:
...Obama (with his now-confirmed fake US birth certificate).
etc

Grunth:
...you are saying it as if it will happen. You should more honestly own your own paranoia by stating it as your personal fear.
Take your own advice.
Grunth
Posts: 793
Joined: February 3rd, 2016, 9:48 pm

Re: Trump the Fascist - Cry Wolf?

Post by Grunth »

Dolphin42 wrote:Grunth:
A coup/civil war will be launched by those who are scared to totally lose their power and influence and to prevent exposure of the frauds they had been operating. The coup organizers are trying to keep out of jail. Obama is such a organizer as this, but if or when a civil war begins I guarantee he will be trying to call the shots from somewhere like Bahrain. These psychopaths won't risk their own lives.
Grunth:
Richard Branson could keep Obama company, maybe even provide some boys for him.
Grunth:
...Obama (with his now-confirmed fake US birth certificate).
etc

Grunth:
...you are saying it as if it will happen. You should more honestly own your own paranoia by stating it as your personal fear.
Take your own advice.
Did you not notice the "if or when" and the "maybes" in each of those examples? Look closer.

-- Updated March 2nd, 2017, 12:57 pm to add the following --
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