Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

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Burning ghost
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Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Burning ghost »

I think it is fair to say the bad and ugly regards Trumps words have been talked about at length here and there.

I am interested in the "Good". Whether you see Trump as a good or bad choice I am interested to here about what things you find as being at least partially "positive". I don't really think there is a singular political decision that can be made without some kind of relatively "negative"/"positive" consequence.

So I am asking also for those who like Trump to look for negative consequences of what they see as good (even if they are only minute in your eyes) and for those that do not like Trump to look for positive consequences (even if they are only minute in your eyes).

Thank you
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Roel
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Roel »

Hmm, I regard Trump as positive as he's an outsider with no experience in a rotten political system like Hillary Clinton and like Nigel Farage he keeps several of his promises.

You ask what negative things I see? Well, I disagree with how he talks about women which lack good looks, he however also gave women opportunities in his business, and called 1 woman stronger than 10 men, so he isn't a misogenyst as some claim him to be.

Also when he said "they are rapists, they are murderers, they are bringing crime" he should have clarified that he ment South American and Mexican gangs in the south of the US instead of referring to Mexicans in general.

And his stances on environment and relations to the Koch brothers are problematic.
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Gabask
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Gabask »

Lol the lack of comments on this post is evidence of Trump's good.
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Ormond
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Ormond »

Burning ghost wrote:Whether you see Trump as a good or bad choice I am interested to here about what things you find as being at least partially "positive
Well, Trump understands the media and our relationship with it better than pretty much anyone on the scene today, which in my view explains both his win, and our surprise at it.

Trump is a businessman from New York, the capital of global media. From that experience he understands that the media is at heart not a public service (the cover story), but a business (the real story).

Trump understands, as do the terrorists, that the media's business is selling ads, which requires building audience, which requires drama. Trump, like the terrorists, provides the needed drama, and the media in turn delivers billions of dollars worth of free advertising in payment.

This is why Trump is constantly trying to say something outrageous. That's his drama contribution. That's why terrorists are constantly blowing things up, that's their drama contribution.

Here's a perfect example.

There was an extremely ordinary guy about a mile from my house. He made his living selling used furniture on eBay. He was the preacher of a church with about 50 members. A complete total nobody, just like you and me. But he knew the game and how to play it.

So he started threatening to burn the Koran. Drama! First the local media picked up the story, then the state media, then the national media, and finally he became an international figure. For threatening to burn a book.

Point being, all the media really cares about is drama, because that's the tool they use to build audience and profits. Trump understands this with a clear mindedness that few of his contemporaries can match.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Burning ghost »

Ormond -

You've answered what was good about his technique not what he is doing.

For one thing I do think so called "free trade" needs to be taken away from the hands of companies and put back into the hands of the government. This is also something that was a good reason for the UK exiting the EU. I worry about businessmen being put into positions where they make decisions that effect people in different countries, can sue countries and are effectively untouchable.

You do highlight how the current media scene has chnaged dramatically. One repercussion of the whole "Brexit"/"Trump" thing is that hopefully people will begin to question things they hear on the news with a more critical mind and not fall into a pattern of cynicism that will merely fuel the fire.

It appears "freedom of speech" may bite back. The freedom to protest against the freedom of spech, the freedom to openly try and shut someone down, etc.,. This are where we find a basic conflict in poltical discussion.

I do find myself asking if critical thinking and intelligence can really outpace sensationalism and popularism in todays world. Meaning does charisma win more than reason? Do people listen to the content or the presentation.

Given that we want quick and decisive answers and solutions to questions the experts need to find a way to reach those with little to no knowledge of such items that happen to be on the agenda. How can the experts reach the public without resorting to analogies that can be distorted to fit someone elses political means?
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Ormond »

Burning ghost wrote:You've answered what was good about his technique not what he is doing.
Well, Trump is acting as a teacher of sorts, as are the terrorists. They teach us by taking our relationship with media, and media's relationship with profits, to an exaggerated level which makes the dangers involved clearer. That which doesn't kill us will make us stronger etc.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

I don't like him so here is some positive I may be able to predict. He will make good on his promise to be a better man...until he is sworn in, if he can manage it that far.

Government by 2 am Tweets is hilarious. Laughing is good for you. Lots of people won't laugh if you slip on a banana peel but if Trump does it then that's another story; it's a great fall.

When a narcissist charms a new victim, she should soon walk away from him unless she has serious mental problems of her own. Divorce is messy and can be dangerous when it involves a narcissist. What good can this bring?

I think the greater the devastation that this choice of Pres brings to the US and to the world, the more likely people will realize the importance of not to ignoring the presence of narcissists in our midst. If society can learn to marginalize all its narcissists then this would be a clear positive as an outcome.
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Duckrabbit »

I do not like Donald Trump. However, his statements that it is vital that we ease tensions and establish good relations with Russia seems eminently sensible to me. Is any one really in favor of a new Cold War? Of World War Three? Well, the answer is yes. Powerful interests, represented by both Republicans and Democrats, such as military, expansionist, financial, and political interests are deeply invested in the creation and demonization of enemies. Russia is no longer communist nor expansionist to anywhere near the extent of the U.S. and its proxy NATO. We need to cut the crap, before its to late. Is this likely to happen under Trump? Probably not. But, yes, he is right that deescalating the rhetoric of enmity with Russia would be a good thing for not just the U.S. but the entire world.
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Ormond »

Duckrabbit wrote: But, yes, he is right that deescalating the rhetoric of enmity with Russia would be a good thing for not just the U.S. but the entire world.
You make a good point, as does Trump. However, it's not enough to simply "deescalate the rhetoric of enmity" and then pat ourselves on the back for a job well done. We still face the challenge of crafting some kind of a relationship with Mr. Putin, who is reasonably labeled the world's most prominent and dangerous gangster.

That description is not escalated rhetoric, it's simply a very unfortunate fact. Putin and the cronies he depends on have sucked trillions of out the pockets of the Russian people for their own personal gain. Putin alone is credibly said to be worth hundreds of billions, which one does not earn on a president's salary.

Putin is operating at the very highest levels of organized crime. Why rob banks when you can rob an entire country? Why worry about the cops when you can be the cops? This is the logic of Putin's rule.

This would be a matter between Putin and those he is ruthlessly robbing except for the fact that Putin is now trapped inside the Kremlin and his only choice for survival is to hang on to power. Thus, he has to fuel international conflicts that will shift the focus of the Russian people on to anything other than the fact that Putin is robbing them blind.

I would suggest a good course forward would be to very clearly separate the Russian people and Putin in our public discourse. We have no beef with the Russian people, nor they with us. So let's deescalate all rhetoric aimed at Russia. Let us always remember that Putin and Russia are not at all the same thing. Putin is the gangster, and Russia is his primary victim.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Burning ghost »

Have you been to Russia? Spoken to Russians?

Just asking because I am very skeptical about critic from a distance. Sounds like you're echoing reports from newspapers amd nothing more.

I am aure he does bad things and good things. Most leaders, including Obama, have their name to some horrific deeds.
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

I follow Gary Kasparov on Twitter. He's Russian, a former World Chess Champion. Ormond seems to have it right.
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Dolphin42 »

This has already essentially been covered by previous posters, but:

One thing I find positive about Trump is that he performs a similar function to satire. He has presented himself, and his relationship with the media, as a kind of parody of a politician. A cartoon version, highlighting (as has been said) that the main purpose of news coverage is entertainment. So far, the soap opera continues to entertain. He is the only non-UK politician that I have ever followed on Twitter.
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Fooloso4 »

The good, the bad, and the ugly may all be revealed in the finding of the Unites States intelligence community investigation of allegations against Trump. Here is an intelligent and objective analysis:

lawfareblog.com/why-are-trump-allegatio ... stantiated

While it emphasizes that nothing has been substantiated it points out that it is significant that the allegations are being taken seriously and that this fact distinguishes it from the typical rumors that are constantly circulating.

So, the question is: if there is nothing to see why are they still looking? Put more cynically: what have they seen and what will be shown to the public?
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Burning ghost
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Burning ghost »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:I follow Gary Kasparov on Twitter. He's Russian, a former World Chess Champion. Ormond seems to have it right.
Are you being funny intentionally? Hard to tell these days! XD
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Re: Trump - The good, the bad and the ugly

Post by Ormond »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:I follow Gary Kasparov on Twitter. He's Russian, a former World Chess Champion. Ormond seems to have it right.
Burning ghost wrote:Are you being funny intentionally? Hard to tell these days! XD
Well, you asked if anyone was listening to actual Russians, and Empiricist-Bruno is telling you that he is, and what he's learned from that listening. Obviously as a chess champion Kasparov is an expert at the processes of reason, and as a highly educated Russian he knows what's happening in his home country. Who knows, maybe you could listen to this actual Russian too, and then you too would have some idea what's going on in Russia.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
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