The Reason For Wars

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Post Reply
User avatar
Ormond
Posts: 932
Joined: December 30th, 2015, 8:14 pm

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Ormond »

Gordon975 wrote:The Hypocrisy of the human species when applied to war is very real indeed, we outlaw murder but allow killing in war, this perhaps illustrates that war is governed by human emotion existing outside of intellectual thought, and so we have to accept that the problem exists and so find a solution.
We accept that the problem exists, so let's proceed to finding a solution. What is your suggestion?
Gordon975 wrote:If it is that the male of our species goes to war and is assumed to do so in defence of the females of its family and society, or for the acquisition of females by overpowering the males of another, then perhaps the military forces that nations create in our modern world should only ever be deployed within their own perceived and accepted boarders, laws enacting such a rule would have prevented many disastrous conflicts in the past.
We already have such rules, which are routinely ignored by violent men. Apologies, I mean no disrespect, but you're recycling very outdated ideas from the 19th century and trying to pass them off as sophisticated insight.

You've started a thread about war. Good! Now, please be clear with us, was your intention in doing so to search for a solution to this existential threat? Or are you content to play a philosophical parlor game which goes endlessly round and round to nowhere? If the later, just say so, and I will accept your answer and leave you alone. Attempts to have your cake and eat it too will not be received warmly.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Belindi »

Nick_A wrote:
We have schools now, which concentrate on intellectual intelligence but where are the emotionally intelligent people responsible for teaching emotional intelligence on a large scale and even know what it is? It doesn't exist so everything repeats including the cycles of war and peace. Since we are as we are, everything is as it is.
The people whom you seek are serious poets, playwrites, and novelists. If there is ever an adequate replacement for religions it will be the arts. Apart from the influences of benign significant others, the humanities have long been where emotional intelligence is learned. Emotional intelligence is promoted in quality modern children's literature where the themes include the feelings of others, including animals.

School teachers are now trained to impart emotional intelligence through story, drama, and plastic arts.
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Nick_A »

Belindi wrote:Nick_A wrote:
We have schools now, which concentrate on intellectual intelligence but where are the emotionally intelligent people responsible for teaching emotional intelligence on a large scale and even know what it is? It doesn't exist so everything repeats including the cycles of war and peace. Since we are as we are, everything is as it is.
The people whom you seek are serious poets, playwrites, and novelists. If there is ever an adequate replacement for religions it will be the arts. Apart from the influences of benign significant others, the humanities have long been where emotional intelligence is learned. Emotional intelligence is promoted in quality modern children's literature where the themes include the feelings of others, including animals.

School teachers are now trained to impart emotional intelligence through story, drama, and plastic arts.
The advantage for intellectual intelligence is proof. In chess for example intellectual intelligence or understanding the game is judged by wins. Can't BS about that. However there is no such proof for emotional intelligence. There are many poets, playwrites, artists and the like but if they are just emoting, why assume it represents emotional intelligence? Weak chess is easily revealed. Cheap emotion is often praised. It is not so easy to define emotional intelligence or to create the medium by which it can be valued by more than empty expressions of "oh how lovely".
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Belindi »

Nick_A wrote:
The advantage for intellectual intelligence is proof. In chess for example intellectual intelligence or understanding the game is judged by wins. Can't BS about that. However there is no such proof for emotional intelligence. There are many poets, playwrites, artists and the like but if they are just emoting, why assume it represents emotional intelligence? Weak chess is easily revealed. Cheap emotion is often praised. It is not so easy to define emotional intelligence or to create the medium by which it can be valued by more than empty expressions of "oh how lovely".
"oh how lovely" art is not serious art but is like pornography, intended to titillate and tempt."Just emoting" is not emotional intelligence.

One defines emotional intelligence by its comparative absence, rather as one defines the good.

Good poets, playwrites, novelists, and artists don't do their work to express and inspire reactive emotions, that is what Rupert Murdoch's newspapers do.

Good poets, playwrites, novelists, and artists do their work to express thought-out truths and to inspire the channelling of raw emotions into the great river of good and true. This river has no detectable finish in the sea of eternal truth but it's what you and I want after all.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7933
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by LuckyR »

Ormond wrote:
Eluhorem wrote:Haha I can't tell if you're joking or not.
That's a normal reaction, no problem. If you'll review the logic outlined in my post above, you'll see it's really not that funny. Like I said, everybody will think this idea is a big joke hardly worth replying to, until the day violent men kills millions in an afternoon. Such a revolutionary event will generate a revolutionary new global mindset.
Eluhorem wrote:Wouldn't getting rid of men for the sake of reducing violence itself require violence? If the goal is to reduce violence, how could one justify using violent means to achieve that goal?
It doesn't require violence. It requires the insight that there is no other option. If violent men are allowed to continue they will eventually succeed in crashing civilization. Evidence, the Cuban Missile Crisis.

If we should discover a way to get rid of violent men while keeping peaceful men, that would be great. But so far anyway, we have thousands of years of failure at such attempts.

Imagine that 98% of the violence in the world was being committed by armadillos. What would we do? We'd get rid of armadillos.
Methinks you are overcongratulating yourself. Which of the "logic" were you referring to?

Over historical time periods there are two (among many) trends: one is that the relative violence perpetrated by females vs males is equalizing and the other is that violence overall by humans is decreasing. If "getting rid" (whatEVER that means...) of males was ever going to be beneficial, it would have been at the dawn of human pre-civilization, not now.
"As usual... it depends."
Gordon975
Posts: 101
Joined: December 9th, 2014, 6:51 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Gordon975 »

The DNA structure of the male of our species is more closely related to the DNA structure of the male chimpanzee, than it is to that of the female human, and with this in mind although it is the role of all to love and protect their family, and its members, and those of their perceived social group, it is historically and probably genetically the role of the male to provide a safe existence for the females and children of the group to which they perceive themselves to belong.

In our modern world we class the male and female of our species as equal, and this is obviously correct regarding intellectual thought, but equality does not mean that male and female should be considered the same, a myth that is often perpetrated by those demanding equality of the sexes.

In the same way that male and female are equal but not the same, each individual of a species is the same as all others but has different strengths both physical and intellectual to enable the mechanism of reproductive natural selection to work, and so adapt to an environment, it is the role of the male to enable this process to work.

The most important education that a human receives is from its mother, the language we learn that guides the future development of our intellect and the perceptions we have of our duty to society and its defence are from this relationship. Every man loves his mother, and it is perhaps this that can via intellect influence the more basic instincts that a male of our species experiences. Males who feel rejected or uncared for, and are cast into day care as young children, may very well be less well socially adjusted at an intellectual level.

The natural tendency of the male to compete with other males for reproductive rights over females is natural, normal and in species evolutionary terms essential, if we try and deny this we are perhaps censoring the truth about how we are made.

This topic is about the reason for war, and if it is a natural part of the males basic DNA structure to compete with each other for available females, then it is perhaps via intellectual evolution via education that this particular natural instinct may be overcome, the education required though may not best come from professional educators but from our mothers.
User avatar
Ormond
Posts: 932
Joined: December 30th, 2015, 8:14 pm

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Ormond »

Methinks you are overcongratulating yourself.
Probably so. So what?
Which of the "logic" were you referring to?
I'm willing to address this, but the question is so far too vague for me to know what you are referring to.
Over historical time periods there are two (among many) trends: one is that the relative violence perpetrated by females vs males is equalizing and the other is that violence overall by humans is decreasing.
This is the logic error I am attempting to warn members about. The phrase "over historical time periods" contains the typically unexamined assumption that such problems will solve themselves over time. Maintaining this wishful thinking assumption requires blatantly ignoring huge well established widely agreed upon historical facts such as the Cuban Missile Crisis.

My fellow members, and most of the rest of our society, think it is still the 19th century when history proceeds at a stately incremental pace. You don't grasp that we live in a revolutionary era driven by the exponential rate of knowledge development, which is empowering violent men along with everyone else. Point being, we don't have "historical time periods" available for humanity to mature and grow out of violence in a natural manner over many generations and centuries.

For some timely evidence, see the recent election of now President Dumpster. Here's how that happened. The knowledge explosion is driving an accelerating pace of change that many can't keep up with. And so they want to "make America great again", that is, go back to 1955 when they felt comfortable that we were driving change, instead of change driving us. The same kind of thing is happening in the Islamic world, and across Europe. Large segments of the population are freaking at the pace of change and handing their power over to the kinds of nationalist nutjobs who have started most of the wars in recent memory. Point being, the knowledge explosion doesn't just give violent men more powerful tools, it's putting them in power where they'll have access to the most powerful tools.

There's never been a time in human history when violent men didn't eventually launch all out fight to the death wars. The next one is surely coming, we just don't know the details of where and when. And when it happens, more people will die in a single day than died in all of WWII, such is the power of the knowledge explosion. And when the unthinkable happens, probably within the lifetimes of some reading this, then thinking the unthinkable will become reasonable.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Steve3007 »

Gordon:
The DNA structure of the male of our species is more closely related to the DNA structure of the male chimpanzee, than it is to that of the female human...
Is that really true, or are you using a bit of poetic license there? If true, by what measure?
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Belindi »

Steve3007 wrote:Gordon:
The DNA structure of the male of our species is more closely related to the DNA structure of the male chimpanzee, than it is to that of the female human...
Is that really true, or are you using a bit of poetic license there? If true, by what measure?
In any case men aren't chimpanzees. Men, unlike chimpanzees don't have natures that are fixed by the genome of the species. Men's natures are formed by time and consciousness, unlike the natures of chimpanzees.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Steve3007 »

Men, unlike chimpanzees don't have natures that are fixed by the genome of the species.
I guess this is now the old, old free-agents versus deterministic, "clockwork" machines discussion. I don't think there's any hard dividing line between humans and chimps. I think it's a continuum from creatures like us who are free agents down to simple life forms that can be understood as complex but predicable chemical reactions. We create the dividing line ourselves and place it where we choose. (Most people on here have a "hobby horse" or two. Mine is the old "we create our own dividing lines to impose on the continua of nature" routine.)
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Belindi »

Steve3007 wrote:
Men, unlike chimpanzees don't have natures that are fixed by the genome of the species.
I guess this is now the old, old free-agents versus deterministic, "clockwork" machines discussion. I don't think there's any hard dividing line between humans and chimps. I think it's a continuum from creatures like us who are free agents down to simple life forms that can be understood as complex but predicable chemical reactions. We create the dividing line ourselves and place it where we choose. (Most people on here have a "hobby horse" or two. Mine is the old "we create our own dividing lines to impose on the continua of nature" routine.)

-- Updated January 23rd, 2017, 8:31 am to add the following --
Belindi wrote:
Steve3007 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


I guess this is now the old, old free-agents versus deterministic, "clockwork" machines discussion. I don't think there's any hard dividing line between humans and chimps. I think it's a continuum from creatures like us who are free agents down to simple life forms that can be understood as complex but predicable chemical reactions. We create the dividing line ourselves and place it where we choose. (Most people on here have a "hobby horse" or two. Mine is the old "we create our own dividing lines to impose on the continua of nature" routine.)
But cultures of belief are themselves determined by factors such as means of subsistence. Human cultures of belief and practise are transmissible through the generations via writing, arts, interpretation of found artefacts, and now electronic media. Chimps although they have cultures which are transmitted by dams, sires, and peers etc. to the young are not recordable so that there is no artificial cultural storage. This is a fact, and I think that although as you say Steve there is a continuum the difference in magnitude between human and chimp culture storage makes up for the absence of absolute difference in kind.

The difference in genome is slight but then so is the difference in genome between men and cabbages slight as compared with the differences in culture
Gordon975
Posts: 101
Joined: December 9th, 2014, 6:51 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Gordon975 »

Steve3007 wrote:
Gordon:
The DNA structure of the male of our species is more closely related to the DNA structure of the male chimpanzee, than it is to that of the female human...

Is that really true, or are you using a bit of poetic license there? If true, by what measure?
It is apparently true Steve, its all to do with the male having an XX chromosome while the female has XY, please watch the TED lecture which explains it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQcgD5DpVlQ
Belindi Wrote :

In any case men aren't chimpanzees. Men, unlike chimpanzees don't have natures that are fixed by the genome of the species. Men's natures are formed by time and consciousness, unlike the natures of chimpanzees.
I agree men are not chimpanzees, my idea was to try and illustrate that they are distinct from the female of their own species, and potentially have an existence that has been defined by their evolution, to fit them for a distinct role tailored for their species survival.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Steve3007 »

Belindi:
But cultures of belief are themselves determined by factors such as means of subsistence. Human cultures of belief and practise are transmissible through the generations via writing, arts, interpretation of found artefacts, and now electronic media. Chimps although they have cultures which are transmitted by dams, sires, and peers etc. to the young are not recordable so that there is no artificial cultural storage. This is a fact, and I think that although as you say Steve there is a continuum the difference in magnitude between human and chimp culture storage makes up for the absence of absolute difference in kind.
Yes, it's true that humans appear to be unique in having an ever-accumulating store of past human knowledge to build on.
User avatar
Ormond
Posts: 932
Joined: December 30th, 2015, 8:14 pm

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Ormond »

Gordon975 wrote:The natural tendency of the male to compete with other males for reproductive rights over females is natural, normal and in species evolutionary terms essential, if we try and deny this we are perhaps censoring the truth about how we are made.
How will the species continue to evolve if violent men destroy the species?

I've offered compelling historical evidence that demonstrates that such a prospect is not wild speculation for some distant future, but a very real possibility in the here and now. I'm not really saying anything my fellow members don't already know. So why not address that which you already know?

I'm not disputing your point that male competition is natural and normal, nor am I debating your assertion that this is how we are made. But you're making an unwarranted leap from these agreed upon facts to the assumption that therefore continued male competition is essential.

You seem unwilling to factor in the reality of the knowledge explosion, which empowers competing men with ever more destructive powers. As the word "explosion" implies, it's not a static situation. Hydrogen bombs are hardly the last existential scale tool that the knowledge explosion will hand to violent men.
This topic is about the reason for war, and if it is a natural part of the males basic DNA structure to compete with each other for available females, then it is perhaps via intellectual evolution via education that this particular natural instinct may be overcome, the education required though may not best come from professional educators but from our mothers.
You keep arguing for "intellectual evolution via education" a process which has been underway already for many centuries, with very modest results. My argument is that we simply don't have time for many more centuries of that. There is no historical evidence which suggests major all out wars between competing men can be avoided over long periods of time.

I realize that this reality is very inconvenient, especially for those who still have most of their lives ahead of them. But it is the reality of the modern era, like it or not. Again, we live in revolutionary times, which can not be successfully navigated with the same old status quo that we are used to and comfortable with.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
User avatar
Ormond
Posts: 932
Joined: December 30th, 2015, 8:14 pm

Re: The Reason For Wars

Post by Ormond »

Steve3007 wrote:We create the dividing line ourselves and place it where we choose.
I am happy to join you in riding this hobby horse.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021