What is white priviledge if what is white can't be defined?

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Fooloso4
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Re: What is white priviledge if what is white can't be defin

Post by Fooloso4 »

-1-:
Roel wrote:If a woman has a jewish father, and an Irish mother and looks completely white, although she is partly jewish and not fully white, is it still white priviledge?
If you are full of craph, are you still partly white, that's what you should ask yourself.
Thanks for pointing this out -1-.


Roel, ‘Jewish’ is not a racial identity. There is much more I could say, but I will give you the benefit of doubt and chalk it up to ignorance and misinformation.
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Re: What is white priviledge if what is white can't be defin

Post by Roel »

Fooloso4 wrote:BenMcLean:
Here's a page that may be relevant. It defines privilege theory in terms of "whiteness" -- contrasting people "who appear white" with "coloured and indigenous" people.
The broader definition of privilege theory is that it applies to any group who enjoys privilege:
At the heart of privilege theory is the idea that oppression works through a series of unearned advantages enjoyed by those who do not suffer a particular oppression. So all men, white people or straight people, for example, will gain privileges that come from not facing sexism, racism or homophobia. (http://isj.org.uk/whats-wrong-with-privilege-theory/)
If, as in your example of a hypothetical nation run by black Africans, blacks enjoy unearned advantages and whites are oppressed then this would be a hypothetical example of black privilege.
Since white people are the indigenous people of Europe, I'm not sure how their theory applies to Europe.
It applies if white people enjoy advantages on the basis of nothing other than the color of their skin. The point the article you cited makes with regard to indigenous people is that they do not enjoy the same social standing in societies dominated by whites even though white people are not the indigenous people. If white people are the indigenous people then indigenous people is in that case not at issue, but other forms of white privilege may still exist.
Also, I know these "white privilege" preaching types aren't so prejudiced that rich white college students are prevented from joining their religion because they get a great many members from this class.


The more fundamental question, as I understand it, is not the advocacy of white privilege but whether it in fact exists. Some think that it is obvious that it does, others argue that it does not exist. White supremacists advocate white privilege, but I don’t think that anyone here is advocating for white privilege. There was another topic that was also started by Roel on white supremacism/white nationalism.

Dolphin 42:
… as a final filter doesn't it make logical sense to pick people based on their appearance?
By final filter I am assume you mean something like choosing between candidates who are by other measures equal - similar education, work experience, recommendations, etc. If that is what you mean I do not think it makes logical sense to give preference to the white candidate. Statistics do not tell us which of these two candidates will do a better job, and more importantly, statistics do not explain the statistics. It may be that with equality of opportunity comes less disparity with regard to statistical differences. In other words, it may be that the statistical differences are a reflection of white privilege.

Yes, but I got it changed to nationalism, because I don't believe any form of supremacism, meaning, wanting to expand and control others, is good.

As for the so called white privilege, I really wonder if people look at all the possible implied factors. People think "white privilege" is there because of racism, a distaste of coloured people. But other reasonable explainations are that it is statistically shown that people of skin color X commit more crimes. It is logical for an officer to look at implied factors. It is surely annoying for innocent black people not doing anything wrong.

Also the reason that someone gets rejected gets reduced to racism. Other reasons might be that an individual has a generally lower IQ, is involved in criminality etc. I just see how white privilege gets used as an excuse too often by people which don't want to look at themselves and blame others for their problems. Ben Carson is a very intelligent black man with a high IQ in a high position, he wasn't rejected because of a so called white privilege.
"Genuine tragedies in the world are not conflicts between right and wrong. They are conflicts between two rights." - Friedrich Hegel
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Re: What is white priviledge if what is white can't be defin

Post by Burning ghost »

Roel -

Back at it again ... *sigh*

Judging by the title of the OP you really don't understand what logic is. The title is ridiculous! XD hahaha!

Next you'll start a topic asking what a Grumpleslong looks like if no ever can, or has ever, seen one. If something cannot be defined how do you expect anyone to define it? We all know what Caucasians look like and more informed people understand that mere looks do not always represent ethic heritage accurately.

The point is others having an advantage over other because of X and not recognizing what the world is like for others. "Privilege" is often blind to those that have it. Being born in the Western world there are numerous privileges I have received that others have not. I have very little experience of living on the streets, or not having enough money to eat. This is because the society I was brought up in is more "privileged" in many respects compared to say North Korea. Note I do not necessarily see "privilege" as "better". There are some so called 'privileges" in society that I believe do more harm than good to human society.
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Re: What is white priviledge if what is white can't be defin

Post by Alias »

Whiteness can be defined, and is defined all the time - there just isn't a standard, official definition. The definitions are local, political, personal, partisan, etc.
People define things that matter to them, not according to strict scientific rules, but according to their perceptions, beliefs, loyalties, experience and cultural tradition.
They are also influenced, and often completely taken in, by whatever propaganda they've been exposed to.
Thus, people act upon principles and motivations that are unrelated to objective fact or rational logic.
It is the collective actions of a society that determine how status, privilege, entitlement, benefits and effectiveness are apportioned among its constituent groups.

As regards hypothetical nations, nothing can be discussed reasonably without an outline of its hypothetical history.
The same holds true of actual nations and their factual history.

-- Updated May 16th, 2017, 12:27 pm to add the following --
Burning ghost wrote: "Privilege" is often blind to those that have it. Being born in the Western world there are numerous privileges I have received that others have not. I have very little experience of living on the streets, or not having enough money to eat.
Plenty of North Americans do have that experience. The structure of societal privilege isn't confined to two clearly specified groups: it has many facets, levels and components.
It also has several main contributing factors, with roots in a given culture and history. The structure of privilege won't be exactly identical in any two nations, nor even uniform through a single nation. It may be relatively simple in, say, Monaco; in a large and diverse nation, it becomes more complex; in a federation of colonial states, it's far more complex.
This is because the society I was brought up in is more "privileged" in many respects compared to say North Korea. Note I do not necessarily see "privilege" as "better". There are some so called 'privileges" in society that I believe do more harm than good to human society.
Geographical and international privilege is a different and larger structure than the one that operates inside the borders of each particular nation. International privilege is a product of historical relationships among nations: past conquest, trade, conflict, migrations; recent and current economic and political relations. It would be very difficult to compare the status of a citizen of one country to a citizen of a very different country. Could be done, i suppose, but you'd have to identify a set of common markers according to which both specimens were chosen.

For purposes of a discussion that includes race, it's probably more useful to stick with citizens of a single nation.
Designate a set of markers, choose the two groups from which the specimens are selected, establish a time-frame and standard criteria, then compare statistical data on as large a sample of both groups as possible. Then you can put the numbers on a chart.
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Re: What is white priviledge if what is white can't be defin

Post by Fooloso4 »

Alias:
Whiteness can be defined, and is defined all the time - there just isn't a standard, official definition. The definitions are local, political, personal, partisan, etc.
People define things that matter to them, not according to strict scientific rules, but according to their perceptions, beliefs, loyalties, experience and cultural tradition.
They are also influenced, and often completely taken in, by whatever propaganda they've been exposed to.
Thus, people act upon principles and motivations that are unrelated to objective fact or rational logic.
It is the collective actions of a society that determine how status, privilege, entitlement, benefits and effectiveness are apportioned among its constituent groups.

As regards hypothetical nations, nothing can be discussed reasonably without an outline of its hypothetical history.
The same holds true of actual nations and their factual history.

-- Updated May 16th, 2017, 12:27 pm to add the following --

Burning ghost wrote:
"Privilege" is often blind to those that have it. Being born in the Western world there are numerous privileges I have received that others have not. I have very little experience of living on the streets, or not having enough money to eat.

Plenty of North Americans do have that experience. The structure of societal privilege isn't confined to two clearly specified groups: it has many facets, levels and components.
It also has several main contributing factors, with roots in a given culture and history. The structure of privilege won't be exactly identical in any two nations, nor even uniform through a single nation. It may be relatively simple in, say, Monaco; in a large and diverse nation, it becomes more complex; in a federation of colonial states, it's far more complex.
This is because the society I was brought up in is more "privileged" in many respects compared to say North Korea. Note I do not necessarily see "privilege" as "better". There are some so called 'privileges" in society that I believe do more harm than good to human society.

Geographical and international privilege is a different and larger structure than the one that operates inside the borders of each particular nation. International privilege is a product of historical relationships among nations: past conquest, trade, conflict, migrations; recent and current economic and political relations. It would be very difficult to compare the status of a citizen of one country to a citizen of a very different country. Could be done, i suppose, but you'd have to identify a set of common markers according to which both specimens were chosen.

For purposes of a discussion that includes race, it's probably more useful to stick with citizens of a single nation.
Designate a set of markers, choose the two groups from which the specimens are selected, establish a time-frame and standard criteria, then compare statistical data on as large a sample of both groups as possible. Then you can put the numbers on a chart.
Good post!
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Re: What is white priviledge if what is white can't be defin

Post by Burning ghost »

Well, I was referring to more extreme differences entwined in culture and such. You can hardly imagine something properly without reasonable exposure.

Nation/Race, same difference! The difference is culturally embedded, at the end of the day it is prejudices we are talking about be they sexist, rascist or whatever. OF course the US has a very solid history in the area of racial matters and having to come to terms with its past.

In Africa women drop their babies on the ground to run away from murderous and raping "soldiers". The comparison with the US stops at a certain point. A woman living on the streets in the US is in a more "privileged" position than one in a war torn nation where rights don't exist anymore.

Such comparisons have already been done. I think they called it the "Good Nation Index" or something like that? ... here:

https://goodcountry.org/

Not perfect or unbiased, but a nice little attempt at looking at the bigger picture. Note the term "good" is used in a very specific sense described by the people who made the index.

Privilege is just a cloaked word for a type of prejudice. That is all. If I have more and someone else has less I should try to help those with less because it is not fair that I be given opportunities others are not. Only the privileged can really shirk off their own privileges, and like I said, they are often blind to them. Being White in a majority White society with a known and documented history of racism is bound to create race privileges. Over time these can be overcome though, and have to lesser and greater degrees around the globe in various different cultures and races. Looking further afield can help us to see the very problems we may be neglecting on our own doorsteps.
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Re: What is white priviledge if what is white can't be defin

Post by Roel »

Burning ghost wrote:Roel -

Back at it again ... *sigh*

Judging by the title of the OP you really don't understand what logic is. The title is ridiculous! XD hahaha!

Next you'll start a topic asking what a Grumpleslong looks like if no ever can, or has ever, seen one. If something cannot be defined how do you expect anyone to define it? We all know what Caucasians look like and more informed people understand that mere looks do not always represent ethic heritage accurately.

The point is others having an advantage over other because of X and not recognizing what the world is like for others. "Privilege" is often blind to those that have it. Being born in the Western world there are numerous privileges I have received that others have not. I have very little experience of living on the streets, or not having enough money to eat. This is because the society I was brought up in is more "privileged" in many respects compared to say North Korea. Note I do not necessarily see "privilege" as "better". There are some so called 'privileges" in society that I believe do more harm than good to human society.
It's very strange how, when we talk about white nationalism, "white" can't be defined, and with white privilege it suddenly can. That's what I was criticizing, but it seems fun to you to mock others, so I won't discuss with you anymore.
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Re: What is white priviledge if what is white can't be defin

Post by Alias »

Roel wrote: It's very strange how, when we talk about white nationalism,
The which what??? You talk about white nationalism, like it was an actual thing?
"white" can't be defined, and with white privilege it suddenly can.
Any word can always be defined, in any context. That won't make it true or accurate, but it's done nonetheless.
What is whiteness in white nationalism is the exact same whiteness that arrogates to itself the privilege of declaring its very own exclusive nationalism.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Re: What is white priviledge if what is white can't be defin

Post by Burning ghost »

Roel -

Someone has to mock you because you cannot handle sensitive subjects very well. You know my position against you. Of course you can go ahead and provoke people all you like, I will continue to point out your flawed use of logic and lazy expositions. Maybe it will help, maybe not. It is wrong in my mind to sit by idle though and say nothing.
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Re: What is white priviledge if what is white can't be defin

Post by wanabe »

Roel,

Honestly it seems like you're just trying to rationalize away white privilege via semantics.

White privilege is based on perception. Racism is about perception. Discussing percentages or ethnic mixing misses the point.

If someone looks ethnically European, communicates with a "western" accent, and has a "western" name they enjoy white privilege completely.

If you know anything about history you must accept and acknowledge the historical legacy and the lingering effects of genocide, colonization and slavery; committed by Europeans and their descendants. These effects have not been mitigated, they continue to perpetuated.
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