Discrimination against young people

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Ncole1
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Discrimination against young people

Post by Ncole1 »

Why might it be permissible to have laws in place which severely curtail the freedoms of persons younger than 16 or 18, if as a matter of fact it could be shown that adult like decision making capacities develop at an earlier age? Would this not then amount to severe and oppressive age-discrimination?

Just about all the studies of decision-making in young people as well as response to social influences seem to either be inconclusive or they show that about 25% of the adult population is actually less mature than the average 13-year-old. Such age-limits as 16 or 18 thus are discriminatory, because we do not declare such a large percent of non-demented adults to be mentally incompetent.
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Re: Discrimination against young people

Post by Fan of Science »

The neurobiology studies I have seen all state that a teenager has an undeveloped prefrontal cortex (PFC), and is also deluged with hormones, which is why violence often occurs during this age, at least among boys. I don't think the PFC fully develops until somewhere in the neighborhood of the mid-20s.
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Ncole1
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Re: Discrimination against young people

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Fan of Science wrote:The neurobiology studies I have seen all state that a teenager has an undeveloped prefrontal cortex (PFC), and is also deluged with hormones, which is why violence often occurs during this age, at least among boys. I don't think the PFC fully develops until somewhere in the neighborhood of the mid-20s.
It is definitely true that there is a shift in the overall balance of gray matter and white matter in most people's brains that doesn't really slow down until the mid-20s, in particular, gray matter cortical thickness peaks around age 12 while white matter volume doesn't peak until age ~30, IIRC. However, the peak cortical thickness of gray matter is actually later in the temporal and parietal lobes than it is in the frontal areas, and the white matter volumes even in frontal areas vary so much from person to person that even though the average does not peak until around age 30, we would find that a significant percentage of adults have a lower volume than the median adolescent. Hence if we used white matter volumes (representing myelinated axons) as a criterion for maturity, then your logic would imply a significant percentage of adults, based on brain scans, should be declared incompetent. Modern neuroscience does not allow us to predict behavior very reliably from brain maps or anatomical data available from MRI, fMRI, or PET scans.

Peaks in violent behavior as a function of age do exist in empirical data, but brain development is not the only plausible explanation. In fact, some studies suggest that if properly adjusted for socio-economic status within each age group, the adolescent violent crime rates, and the rates for murder in particular, are very much the same, or even slightly lower, than those in adult men. (Google "Mike Males" and "adolescent violence" together to find more). Of course one could counter that minimum legal ages for firearm purchase result in a suppression of adolescent rates and that the "natural" rate would be higher, but if this were the explanation, there should be a pronounced spike in the rate as a function of age which is later in states with a 21 minimum age vs. an 18 minimum.) I'm not aware of any such effect, and even if there is one, it shouldn't apply to other violent crimes besides murder.
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LuckyR
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Re: Discrimination against young people

Post by LuckyR »

Ncole1 wrote:Why might it be permissible to have laws in place which severely curtail the freedoms of persons younger than 16 or 18, if as a matter of fact it could be shown that adult like decision making capacities develop at an earlier age? Would this not then amount to severe and oppressive age-discrimination?

Just about all the studies of decision-making in young people as well as response to social influences seem to either be inconclusive or they show that about 25% of the adult population is actually less mature than the average 13-year-old. Such age-limits as 16 or 18 thus are discriminatory, because we do not declare such a large percent of non-demented adults to be mentally incompetent.
You are only describing half of the picture. The half that youth like to think (and whine) about, namely adult Rights that they do not have access to. OTOH I never hear youth clamor for more adult Responsibilities. They are too happy to not have to provide for themselves and have stuff handed to them. Funny, isn't it?
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Re: Discrimination against young people

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The science shows that the PFC does not fully develop until the mid-20s, which leaves teenagers more dependent on emotional reactions to events, and they are ruled more by the amygdala than people are who have fully developed PFCs. It's not just that people discovered this recently about teenagers being more irresponsible on average than adults, even the ancient Greeks knew this. Remember the story about the son who flew too high and had his wings melt? A story about teenagers being reckless and not behaving like a more mature adult would. The modern science is simply consistent with what people have known for thousands of years --- teenagers, on average, are more reckless than adults.
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Shanor
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Re: Discrimination against young people

Post by Shanor »

From what I have heard, the reason that younger people can not vote is based more upon their parents rather then their level of development. I can see two situations where this vote would cause problems. when parents decide to force their child to chose the candidate the parent wants, and if a child voted for a candidate only to mess with their parents. Both of these could cause upset in quite a few states. I think that people should have to wait until they are 18 to vote just because parents will no longer have a say on who their child votes for.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Discrimination against young people

Post by Burning ghost »

There is a bigger problem than this. Voting is not as big a deal as education. Children do not get a choice in what they learn, how they can learn and who they listen to.

There are some schools where children are allowed to choose to go to class or not, and they function perfectly well. The biggest problem I feel in society is the lack of freedom given to children in the course of their education. I strongly feel that schooling should not be about teaching, but more about enabling children to explore their own interests.

If anything there is a big problem with how children are taught not to think, not to question and not to learn for themselves.

note: I am a "teacher". What is blatantly obvious to anyone who has taught is that all students differ and all students have different interests and ways to approach subjects. In society people are now aware that the "one size fits all" attitude doesn't work. In trying to cater to every individual the "one sixe fits all" attitude caters to no one because literal no one is "average". Misapplication of mathematical logic into social science AGAIN!
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Re: Discrimination against young people

Post by Eduk »

Would this not then amount to severe and oppressive age-discrimination?
Oppression is defined as
Inflicting harsh and authoritarian treatment
I don't see too many children who are oppressed. At least not in developed countries like the UK. Oh and at least not by the state.
Children do not get a choice in what they learn, how they can learn and who they listen to.
Where do you teach? I live in the UK and I never once felt I was being stopped from learning anything. Granted things aren't always given to you on a plate and granted many schools could do better but teaching children not to think is the reserve of bad teachers. Good teachers encourage thought and independence. Indeed as you progress through education your own opinion becomes more and more prominent. By the time you are doing a PHD you are more or less expected to learn something new which has never been taught.
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Re: Discrimination against young people

Post by Togo1 »

Fan of Science wrote:The neurobiology studies I have seen all state that a teenager has an undeveloped prefrontal cortex (PFC), and is also deluged with hormones, which is why violence often occurs during this age, at least among boys. I don't think the PFC fully develops until somewhere in the neighborhood of the mid-20s.
I'm not familiar with any studies that show PFC development peaking at 19-20. If it's underdeveloped at 17, it' still underdeveloped at 24.

Happy to see any citations to contrary though. Developmental isn't my field.

-- Updated July 6th, 2017, 6:56 am to add the following --
Fan of Science wrote:The science shows that the PFC does not fully develop until the mid-20s, which leaves teenagers more dependent on emotional reactions to events, and they are ruled more by the amygdala than people are who have fully developed PFCs.
I'm pretty sure the science _doesn't_ say that. Again, happy to see a citation though.

There are certainly biases in the reaction profile with teenagers, just as there are in early adulthood, late adulthood, and the elderly.
Fan of Science wrote:It's not just that people discovered this recently about teenagers being more irresponsible on average than adults, even the ancient Greeks knew this. Remember the story about the son who flew too high and had his wings melt? A story about teenagers being reckless and not behaving like a more mature adult would.
Sure, except that in Ancient Greece most of the teenagers you're talking about would be considered responsbile adults. The ancient greeks also complained that their youths didn't respect their elders, or tradition, wore their hair too long, and favoured 'girlish' music. Some things really don't change, but is this a bias in teenagers, or in adults?

-- Updated July 6th, 2017, 7:02 am to add the following --
LuckyR wrote:The half that youth like to think (and whine) about, namely adult Rights that they do not have access to. OTOH I never hear youth clamor for more adult Responsibilities. They are too happy to not have to provide for themselves and have stuff handed to them. Funny, isn't it?
Not really. Can you think of any examples of adults clamouring for more responsibilities?

What youth generally want is more control over their lives. Adults want the same. That's hardly unreasonable. Neither group generally worries too much about picking up the peices when it goes wrong, which is why we have to hire special people to collect stranded climbers from mountainsides, rescue swimmers and boaters from lakes and seas, enforce speed limits on roads, and deal with people when they drink too much.

-- Updated July 6th, 2017, 7:17 am to add the following --
Eduk wrote:
Would this not then amount to severe and oppressive age-discrimination?
Oppression is defined as
Inflicting harsh and authoritarian treatment
I don't see too many children who are oppressed. At least not in developed countries like the UK. Oh and at least not by the state.
Depends on how you look at it.

Children are literally given into the care of an adult, chosen for them. Most often that's their parents, but in a high precentage of cases it isn't. They can't legally protest, can't vote, have no legal voice, can't bear witness or testify, or lodge legal protest, have no financial, property or other rights, are exempt from minimum wages or workers rights, have no rights to family or children, no legal control over their own bodies, can be forced to either have or not have any operation, including an abortion, as their guardian dictates, are subject to arbitrary arrest, assault, imprisonment, search and seizure, no right to assembly, or association, can be freely descriminated against, and have the highest rate of physical and sexual abuse against them of any demographic in the country.

They are also herded daily into large institutions that have a legal duty to try and influence their thinking, attitudes and behaviour into patterns favoured by the state and their legal guardians. Those that escape are forcibly restrained and returned, repeat offenders are imprisoned.

This doesn't go far enough for some people, who want to curtail their access to information, formerly legalise physical assault against them, or campaign to hard them into forced labour camps, mostly often to train them to murder enemies of the state.

On the plus side, they get lollipops, and don't have to balance a checkbook.
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Re: Discrimination against young people

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Togo1 wrote:
LuckyR wrote:The half that youth like to think (and whine) about, namely adult Rights that they do not have access to. OTOH I never hear youth clamor for more adult Responsibilities. They are too happy to not have to provide for themselves and have stuff handed to them. Funny, isn't it?
Not really. Can you think of any examples of adults clamouring for more responsibilities?

What youth generally want is more control over their lives. Adults want the same. That's hardly unreasonable. Neither group generally worries too much about picking up the peices when it goes wrong, which is why we have to hire special people to collect stranded climbers from mountainsides, rescue swimmers and boaters from lakes and seas, enforce speed limits on roads, and deal with people when they drink too much.
Nice try. Everyone knows adults get adult Rights along with adult Responsibilities. Under the current system, minors get reduced Rights and as it happens reduced Responsibilities. Some minors (as evidenced by this thread) want increased Rights, but "paying" for them with increased Responsibilities is never part of the discussion. I get that everyone wants a free lunch. Problem is, it doesn't exist.
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Re: Discrimination against young people

Post by Togo1 »

LuckyR wrote:
Togo1 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Not really. Can you think of any examples of adults clamouring for more responsibilities?

What youth generally want is more control over their lives. Adults want the same. That's hardly unreasonable. Neither group generally worries too much about picking up the peices when it goes wrong, which is why we have to hire special people to collect stranded climbers from mountainsides, rescue swimmers and boaters from lakes and seas, enforce speed limits on roads, and deal with people when they drink too much.
Nice try. Everyone knows adults get adult Rights along with adult Responsibilities. Under the current system, minors get reduced Rights and as it happens reduced Responsibilities. Some minors (as evidenced by this thread) want increased Rights, but "paying" for them with increased Responsibilities is never part of the discussion.
It is in every case I've ever looked at. Emanciapted minors, for example, social care hearings, psychological fitness evaluations, arguments over school social controls, and so on.
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LuckyR
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Re: Discrimination against young people

Post by LuckyR »

Togo1 wrote:
LuckyR wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Nice try. Everyone knows adults get adult Rights along with adult Responsibilities. Under the current system, minors get reduced Rights and as it happens reduced Responsibilities. Some minors (as evidenced by this thread) want increased Rights, but "paying" for them with increased Responsibilities is never part of the discussion.
It is in every case I've ever looked at. Emanciapted minors, for example, social care hearings, psychological fitness evaluations, arguments over school social controls, and so on.
Long story, short, the current system isn't "discrimination", it's logical. You gotta pay to play, no freeloaders.
"As usual... it depends."
Togo1
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Re: Discrimination against young people

Post by Togo1 »

LuckyR wrote:
Togo1 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


It is in every case I've ever looked at. Emanciapted minors, for example, social care hearings, psychological fitness evaluations, arguments over school social controls, and so on.
Long story, short, the current system isn't "discrimination", it's logical. You gotta pay to play, no freeloaders.
That's what they used to say about Woman having the vote. The fact remains, nonetheless, that a child who wants to 'play' doesn't get a chance to pay, they just get arrested.
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LuckyR
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Re: Discrimination against young people

Post by LuckyR »

Togo1 wrote:
LuckyR wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Long story, short, the current system isn't "discrimination", it's logical. You gotta pay to play, no freeloaders.
That's what they used to say about Woman having the vote. The fact remains, nonetheless, that a child who wants to 'play' doesn't get a chance to pay, they just get arrested.
You are correct, alas, you and I posting doesn't change the momentum of history.

But from the Philosophical (not the Realistic) perspective: How much traction is your argument getting? Word of advice: if you wanna get something, offer up something.

Good luck.
"As usual... it depends."
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