Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

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Spectrum
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

Post by Spectrum »

[b]Burning Ghost[/b] wrote:ALSO ... I am still waiting for an explanation as to what e above statistics refer to?? 90% what? What are you referring to? You need to present this is with a clear use of language because I only have the most vague of ideas what these statistics refer to. Also one says [followers] where the others don't? This looks like a deliberate misrepresentation of data.
I had explained above. Here again.

Earlier I started with degrees [1% -Low to 100% high] of evilness/violence in religions in terms of evil in their holy texts.
The Islam=90% in my first listing denote Islam has a high degree of evilness, i.e. 90/100, 90%.
Then you asked me how I arrive at 90%.

I explained we can infer from the evidence of actual evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are evil prone. This stats [justifiable] is obtainable from the TROP site.
I don't have stats on the total of all evil/violence act committed by believers in all religions.
But a good guess based on what we read from the News, the 31,100++ fatal incidents by Islamist terrorists [based on religious duty] since 911 is most likely to be 90% of the total.

That is how I got my [appx.] 90% rating of evilness/violent for Islam in contrast to all other religions. It could be more or lower but definitely at least in the 80%++ range.

Wake Up!
Btw, I did not say you must wake up to believe me to wake up to the evilness of Islam [part] based on what I have presented. I admit I have not presented an objective complete presentation yet.

Note Woodart seem to agree with me in respect on the evilness and violence in Islam but he did not do so based on what I have presented. I believe Woodart must have done his own research and readings from elsewhere and the evidence on hand to "wake up" to this reality of the evils of Islam [partly].

So "wake up" meant a greater realization of the seriousness of the problem of Islamic evil as a threat to humanity. If you have woken up to this, you would be doing your own research objective and not waiting for me to convince you.

As part of my research [literature review] I have listened to Douglas Murray and Christopher Hitchen. Both lack the depths I have dug into. I have also read from hundred+ authors [Muslims and non-Muslims] on the subject - they lack the "bite" that I am trying to establish.

-- Updated Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:05 pm to add the following --

@ZoneOfNonBeing
ZoneOfNonBeing wrote:2). Terrorism is a hatred produced by a greater hatred. The attackers in Boston, Orlando, and Ohio all argued their violence was a reaction to bombings in the Middle East. Studies show that 90-95% of all suicide bombings in the world are responses to foreign [typically American] military occupation. Terrorists are not radicalized by Islam, they are radicalized by Western foreign policy.

3). The War on Terror only breeds more terrorism. Every time a bomb is dropped on the Middle East, a bunch of people join ISIS to commit more acts of unconscionable evil for the sake of evil. The War on Terror reproduces what it claims to eradicate; and is the most powerful form of recruitment.

4). If Western governments are truly interested in ending terrorism, they will stop terrorizing the Middle East with its imperialist agendas. Instead of implementing a travel ban and criminalizing refugees, the West should address the primary reasons people leave their countries to begin with: poverty and war. When this happens, there will be no need to fear refugees as potential terrorists

5). The U.S. and U.K. support Saudi Arabia with arms deals, etc. They also support Israel - an open air prison and colonial regime oppressing Palestine. The question should be less about why do liberals support Islam - the question should be: why does the West support Saudi Arabia and the Zionist agenda being implemented in Israel? (*calling out Zionism is not the same as being anti-Semitic).
I wonder how much do you know about Islam and its inherent evil ethos within?

'Foreign Policy' seem to be the obvious but it is not the underlying proximate root cause.
Note Boko Haram is motivated to terrorism in hating Western Education. Malala was shot by the Taliban because of Western Education. The cultural genocides has nothing to do with foreign policies. The killing of atheists and those who critique Islam has nothing to do with arms sales. Note the drawing of cartoons.
The unilateral imperialism of Islam [starting from ~620 AD] conquering lands from Spain to India accompanied by evil, violence and hundreds of million of death has nothing to do with foreign policies and arm sales.

If you focus on foreign policy and the above reasons, you will be merely fire-fighting.


Here is the proximate root cause of why they hate from the horses mouth.

I know the Mirror is a tabloid but in the case, the credibility is the Mirror referred and cited from I SIS' site and their newsletter.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... ns-8533563

According to I SIS, 'foreign policy' is not the most critical reason why they fight and kill non-Muslim. They gave 6 reasons and the most critical is this;
[b]I SIS[/b] wrote:"What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred, this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list.

"The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam."
If you have a full grasp of the Quran and ethos of Islam, this is exactly what is reflected in the ethos of the Quran and I SIS is merely echoing Allah's words and obey Allah as a divine duty to ensure of a place in Paradise.

The point is the very existence of non-Muslims and their beliefs is an inherent threat to Islam as the superior and only religion that must prevail on Earth. Muslim apologists will refer to some odds and ends verses re tolerance of other religions but these are merely pseudo [window dressing] views.

If you want to express any views on Islam, you have no choice [imperative re intellectual integrity] to read and understand [not necessary agree with] Islam fully.


The LEFT vs Right dichotomy is stretch on a continuum.
I believe the liberals overlap with the Left in many ideas.
Say the degrees are 1-LEFT.. 51/50[centrist]... Right-100.
People like Trudeau [liberal] would be rated at '25' toward the left/liberal

-- Updated Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:21 pm to add the following --

@ZoneOfNonBeing
ZoneOfNonBeing wrote: The War on Terror only breeds more terrorism
The War on Terror is necessary given the current situation, i.e. I SIS must not be given the opportunity to reinforce their "beachheads" in Iraq and Syria. But I assert the 'War on Terror' is not effective to get rid of Islamic-based evils and violence. It can only be done when we address the proximate causes effectively.

To get rid of Islamic-based evils and violence humanity must move on to an Ideological War.
For this, we need to identify the proximate causes that drive the evil.
The proximate causes are definitely not 'foreign policies' and the other secondary reasons I have listed above. While the secondary causes must be addressed the focus and main attention must be on the primary reasons.

As from the horses mouth, why Islam hate non-Muslims is basically their disbelief and this is driven by the Quran and Ahadith. There are other critical factors re psychological ones which I have discussed in this thread.
Thus to eliminate Islamic-based evils, terror and violence we address these proximate causes on an Ideological War basis.

-- Updated Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:57 pm to add the following --
[b]Burning ghost[/b] wrote:My point was to say that the Talmud has equally evil passages throughout (many say it openly lifted passages from here!). We do not see as much aggression and violence from Jews. Why is this? What are the differences between these societies? Is there possibly more to this than the religious text?
Someone has done a rough analysis and the evil and violent materials in the Old Testament [Torah] and Talmud are much more and worse in description that those in the Quran. But the fact is there are minimal aggression and violence from Jews.
Since the evils and violence from the Jews are not critical I have not done a thorough into the Torah and Talmud.

I read the evil and violent elements in the Torah and Talmud are taken as stories and examples rather as a religious duty and commanded by God to act upon non-believers. I think this is the main reason why Jews in general are not inspired to commit evils and violence on non-believers.

The Quran on the other hand give sanctions and exhort Muslims [as a religious duty] to fight [kill] non-Muslims within certain conditions which are vague, ambiguous and open-ended. On top of that Muslims who are martyred in battle against infidels are accorded special rewards.
  • 2:216. Warfare [l-qitālu] is ordained [kutiba: prescribed] for you [Muslims], though it is hateful unto you [Muslims]; but it may happen that ye [Muslims] hate a thing which is good [Khayr] for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad [ShaRR] for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

    22:39. Sanction [udhina: permission authorised] is given unto those [Muslims] who fight because they [Muslims] have been ẓulimū*[ZLM; by infidels and hypocrites]; and Allah is indeed Able to give them [Muslims] victory [naṣrihim];
    *zulimu can be any offense by non-Muslims including drawing of cartoons
There are 3,400++ [55%!!] verses out of 6,236 verses in the Quran supporting the evil ethos with Islams directed against non-Muslims [kuffar].

In addition, there are very less Jews, i.e. 10+ millions compared to 1.5 billion Muslims at present. In addition Judaism do not proselytisize nor simply accept Tom, Dick or Harry into the religion. But I think quantum is not a factor, rather it is the ideology of a religion that matter.
In contrast any one who had declared the Sahada [a two sentences oath] is accepted as a Muslim.
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

Post by -1- »

I am with Zoneofnonebeing. I accept all his or her points.

As to why Israel is so strongly supported by the USA: It is my private joy and inference to say on my own and of my own volition and thinking, that the USA protects Israel for the USA has very powerful fundamentalist Christians who believe we are near the End Times, which necessitates that Israel be. Therefore in order not to delay the second coming of Christ, these fundamentalist Christian Americans will do anything in their power to facilitate the second coming of Christ, which involves, among other things, the sustenance of the state of Israel.

Israel has other allies, as well, I am not denying that. But the most important and powerful one are the supporters who believe that we are living near the end times as prophesied in the bible.

-- Updated 2017 July 13th, 12:50 am to add the following --

wrote:
Burning ghost wrote:My point was to say that the Talmud has equally evil passages throughout (many say it openly lifted passages from here!). We do not see as much aggression and violence from Jews. Why is this? What are the differences between these societies? Is there possibly more to this than the religious text?
Sure you do see as much evil violence and aggression from the Jews of israel.

How can you ignore that:
1. they removed or made second-rate citizens some residents of Israel whose life is hell in an open-air prison for generations now?
2. They shot, maimed, mutilated Arabs in the expansion phase (1948) of Israel in order to make an area exclusively Jewish, and thus make sure it would become part of the landmass of Israel.
3. The political prisoners in Israel go through horrible physical and emotional torture.
4. All Israelis hate all Arabs and would kill any number of them once given (a hypothetical) immunity to do so.

Good enough, though, that the above refers mainly and almost exclusively to Israeli Jews, not the diaspora outside of Israel.

But I insist that to say that Jews are incapable or are less likely to do evil deeds than Muslims, is a false and falsified myth.
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

Post by Burning ghost »

Spectrum -
I read the evil and violent elements in the Torah and Talmud are taken as stories and examples rather as a religious duty and commanded by God to act upon non-believers. I think this is the main reason why Jews in general are not inspired to commit evils and violence on non-believers
.

False. They are laws decreed by God, including murder and robbery being allowed on non-Jews.

-1-
Sure you do see as much evil violence and aggression from the Jews of Israel.
I don't think this is true. We are talking about acts of "terror" here. The obvious difference is the Israeli state has a standing army. It can be argued that the Israeli state was defending itself against Syrian invasion, it is an obviously complicated tit-for-tat situation of which the western powers initiated by displacing millions of people to make way for the founding of the state of Israel.

I have met some young Israelis fresh out of the army. They said to me quite unabashed that the Palestinians should give back the land to Israel. They systematically brainwashed to belief all the land is theirs. I have met older people from Israel too who "hate" Israel. They literally despise the governments actions and deplore the invasion of Palestinian territories. All this said I do think it is a little naïve for us to point the blame at the state of Israel. Sure they've done some wrongs, but there does not generally seem to be much to be helping peace along.

A lot of the problems have without doubt stemmed from western countries refusing to recognize Palestine as a country for decades and actively backing and arming the Israeli state.

Spectrum is concerned with focusing only on The Koran. He does undoubtedly have a point. Should we really say people killing for Israel is any different from people dying for Allah? Is Israel a secular state or not? It is a secular state and actions carried out by the state are state actions not religious actions. This is the big difference. I am sure some members of that society condone killing non-Jews because it is written in the Talmud that they can. The fact they live in a secular nation means these kinds of people have no foothold in society and will not be able to rise to power. In the Muslim world the situation is quite different. We have Saudi Arabia who have LOTS of money to back anything they wish and they live in a non-secular state. They are not concerned with democracy and the people from there are generally not concerned with it either. For them the law is written in the religious texts.

The major difference I see is that nations in the middle east are still transitioning from non-secular rule to secular rule. Religious Jews don't go around killing and maiming because if they did they'd be arrested and sent to prison. In Saudi Arabia you'd be doing your state duty by beating someone to death for being gay or drinking alcohol etc.

Without a shadow of a doubt it is easier to recruit vulnerable people into religious sects when they are under extreme strain and suffering. People when desperate will turn to any willing to offer help. War is a fertile means for these kinds of extremists to take a hold of peoples minds. It is an age old propaganda war and even more impactful today given the almost endless access to communications.
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

Post by ZoneOfNonBeing »

@ Spectrum:

I reject the idea that foreign policy is a secondary motive in terror attacks. It is not that simple. Your analysis quotes one source from one terror group - as if all terrorism is uniform. It is not. The truth is: some individuals are motivated by a mixture of factors, and some organizations have different political priorities. To the extent that the U.S. government and the mass media are reliable sources, terrorists typically make declarations as to why the attacks were carried out. These statements provide us with clues about fighting terrorism. Consider the following examples of noteworthy Islamic terrorists:

Osama bin Laden (allegedly behind the 9/11 attacks) – “I say to our Muslim brothers across the world: your brothers in Saudi Arabia and Palestine are calling for your help and asking you to share with them in the jihad against the enemies of God, your enemies the Israelis and Americans. They are asking you to defy them in whatever way you possibly can, so as to expel them in defeat and humiliation from the holy places of Islam”.

Dzokhar Tsarnaev (allegedly behind the Boston Marathon bombing) – “…the bombings were in retribution for the U.S. crimes in places like Iraq and Afghanistan [and] that the victims of the Boston bombing were collateral damage, in the same way innocent victims have been collateral damage in U.S. wars around the world”.

Omar Mateen (allegedly behind the Orlando shootings) – “Stop bombing Syria and Iraq”.

Abdul Ratan (allegedly behind the Ohio attacks) - "stop interfering with other countries, especially the Muslim Ummah. By Allah, we will not let you sleep unless you give peace to the Muslims. You will not celebrate or enjoy any holiday”.

The idea that Islam is inherently violent is Islamophobic. One thing we must realize is that every doctrine or school of thought is perverted by individuals/groups at some point. We should not judge the doctrine or school of thought by its adherents, we should judge it by its principles alone. We do not judge Christianity by the behavior of Christians, now do we? If we judged Christianity by the actions of Christians, it would fall apart once we brought up Judas! The religion would become illegitimate immediately when we focus on the Catholic Church. That stated, ISIS and other terrorist organizations are not accurate representations of Islam - they are perversions.

And quite frankly, framing "terrorism" as a clash of civilization makes the matter seem intractable where it does not have to be. Hatred is not the same as acting out violence; and the entire point is - Muslims are now carrying out violence against the West as opposed to just passively hating. For hundreds of years, they hated the West, but never got involved in terrorism. What we are calling terrorism is a recent affair - a direct consequence of Western imperialism since the end of WWII. We begin to see imperialism in the Middle East beginning when the US/UK supported Israeli forces against Palestine in 1948. Framing this as a "religious" matter only cloaks the fact that the War on Terror was a scheme to colonize the Middle East and extract resources (there were never any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq) - and the US supported Gaddhafi as long as he didn't get in the way of US foreign interests.

And if you do some honest and earnest research, you will find that the U.S. created Al-Qaeda and ISIS. What we are now running around in fear about over - this "ISIS" was created by the US to undermine and topple the Assad regime in Syria. These are facts; it is on record.
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

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I accept all that you said, ZoneOfNoneBeing, but you must understand the stance of the USA: they NEED to protect Israel if they are to see the second coming of Christ any time soon. If Israel as a Jewish state perishes, which it would do in a matter of minutes without US support, then the USA fundamentalist Christians will become sad. And we don't want sad fundamentalist Christians in the USA now, do we? We want happy ones there.

So there, there is the rationality for making hundreds of millions of Arabs into refugees, into terrorists, into ruthless blood-thirsty soldiers, into lost orphans, into maimed and mutilated paupers.
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

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-1- :

I am not seeing the connection between Israel and Christian fundamentalists, though. Jewish people do not believe in Christ, so I am confused.
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

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Actually, in 1948, when Israel was invaded by 5 much larger Arab Muslim armies, seeking the mass murder of all Jews in Israel, Israel did not have any military assistance from the USA, but won the war. The idea that Israel will cease to exist without US assistance is an unfounded assumption, and ignores the facts of history.

-- Updated July 13th, 2017, 10:56 am to add the following --

Islam is inherently violent. There are numerous passages in the Koran that state a Muslim is obligated to behead a non-believer. The only peaceful passage in the Koran that Muslims ever cite, is where the Koran plagiarized Jewish scripture ---- the line about if one kills a single person it is as if he murdered the entire population. However, what Muslims do not mention is the words added in that passage, which clearly state that Muslims have a duty to murder non-Muslims.

There is not a single Islamic state that provides non-Muslims with equal political rights. Not one. That's violence against non-Muslims. Of course, the left ignores these basic facts because they want the world to believe that Islam was never spread through violence. There is only one group of people who have committed murder over cartoons --- Muslims.

The left also acts like Muslims when they assault people over college speakers they don't like, as well as destroy property. The left and Islam share the common belief that issues should be decided through violence, and not through argument.
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

Post by Woodart »

This thread has gotten off topic in some ways. The original OP is not the greatest presentation of, what I think, is the intent of the topic. The topic, as I see it, is why are people in general sympathetic to Islam. It is not just a commentary on people of the left – right – or center – rather a commentary on the nature of Islam – what it thinks and its impact on the world.

I think Islam is a detriment to mankind. My premise is Muhammad is not an ideal human being as stated by Muslim’s. He killed people and/or ordered people killed. He had sex with a 9 year old girl and countless other women. He engaged in the spoils of war – killing opponents – then having nonconsensual sex with his opponent’s wife or daughter. He promoted slavery. He stole people property by conquest. This kind of intellect is not spiritual – quite the contrary. Muhammad represents the worst in human development.

In addition Islam is a political movement more than it is a religion. The religious part is a mask for political conquest and greed. Islam enslaves women behind a veil in order to propagate a breeding machine with the intent of political conquest. Islam is not about peace – it is about conquest. The original OP is trying to say – WAKE UP – and see what it is doing – it is winning! 25% of the Earth’s population is Muslim.

Islam cannot be defeated by military – economics – or politics. That ship has sailed. The only way to defeat Islam is to show Muhammad was an evil, vile man.
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

Post by ZoneOfNonBeing »

Woodart:

Simply because you do not agree is insufficient grounds for saying the conversation is off topic. And besides, unless you are a moderator, that is not your place to determine.

The subject line is why is the left sympathetic to Islam. This is about the left and their politics, not focusing specifically on Muhammad.

And I disagree that Islam is evil. If Islam is evil, Christianity and Judaism are also evil. We can all dig up passages to make Islam look bad, to make Moses look bad, etc.
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

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ZoneOfNonBeing wrote:-1- :

I am not seeing the connection between Israel and Christian fundamentalists, though. Jewish people do not believe in Christ, so I am confused.
Please see the second paragraph of post #152 in this thread.
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

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-1-

That mystifies as opposed to clarifies the matter.
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

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Islam can't be evil, much like the law can't be evil, or Christianity can't be evil.

Evil is a characteristic of a human. It involves motivation and wish and desire to hurt. A system of faith or a system of philosophy lacks desires, as it is not a person, not a biological being, and thus far we have only seen biological beings as possessing emotions, motivations and a capacity to work to satisfy their needs.

So ISLAM is not evil. People who follow Islam may be evil. Hitler was Christian, he was evil. Stalin was not a Muslim, he was evil. Nero, Caligula, were not Muslims, they were evil. George W. Bush was (is) evil. There are evil Muslims, too, too numerous to mention.

But please drop the rhetoric that "Islam is evil".
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

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-1- is the only one who seems to get it!!
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

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ZoneOfNonBeing wrote:-1-

That mystifies as opposed to clarifies the matter.
Think about it for a while... It will become clearer than the azure sky in the deepest summer.

This is just something you've not read anywhere and nobody has told you... it's strange, it is not to be trusted (the idea), but once it grows on you, you'll see how very plausible it is.

Unless you are not familiar with American culture and tendencies. You have to experience seeing the blind faith that ravages the minds there.
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Re: Why is the left so sympathetic to Islam?

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I have thought about it. You are now outsourcing your scholastic responsibilities. Be more robust in your explanation
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