UK Election 2017

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Burning ghost
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UK Election 2017

Post by Burning ghost »

I am not providing a link but hope mods understand one is not really needed.

If you don't know what this is then simply search on the net for it, but here is a brief overview:

Wikil-link deleted ... wtf ?

I am posting here because it is VERY current and VERY important news for the UK and would like very much to engage in a discussion about the two parties and two possible outcomes.

I am not hiding my agenda here. I want to engage with people in the UK able to vote in the election and hopefully bring people to vote for Corbyn. In my lifetime there had not been an opportunity for the public to vote between two distinct political positions and so I am voicing my opinion now about this and hoping to get people in the UK to focus on what is happening.

I completely understand that in past elections people refused to vote because they thought "it made no difference", and I agree with this decision. I myself, if I voted always picked the third party in the hope of having a better variety of choices in the future (I tended toward lib. dem. for this reason).

Right now Corbyn is offering a real choice and a real change to society so I am asking you to look at the good and the bad and hope people in the UK can read past the media coverage and the blatant bias that has been presented.

Also, I do not believe that we should vote for personalities. We should vote for the policies and the aim of the policies, that we should vote for people who are willing to engage with other politicians and the public. And yes, that is a dig at Teresa May who has REFUSED to engaged with Corbyn in a public debate. I look for honesty in politics and what I have seen is May stating VERY CLEARLY that a snap election would not take place ... and then she holds a snap election to try and destroy the labour party (she lied). This is after saying that the UK needed stability so she would not hold a snap election!! NOW she is using this position to say that people HAVE TO vote for her because to throw Corbyn into the Brexit negotiations would would bad for the UK. She lied and used the lie to try and manipulate public favour. Her aim is to destroy the opposition so she can effectively destroy democracy and leave the country, or rather the government, almost unopposable! A landslide win would mean a ONE party government able to do whatever it pleases because she aims to remove ANY opposition.

Why is this wrong? It is wrong because it is a purposeful ploy to destroy political debate. A strong government is only as strong as the opposition. Without an opposition to counter-balance the governing party we are left to their whims.

Do I expect Corbyn to win? I hope so. More than that I just hope and hope that at the very least the conservatives don't win by a huge margin and destroy the opposition!

As an aside (I have mentioned elsewhere) there is also the blatnant bias of the media. It is for this reason I do not expect Labour to actually win. The people with money are obviously opposed to someone coming into power saying they will raise taxes for the wealthy.

I am also interested to here views from outside the UK and especially from mainland Europe and the US. I expect a certain skewed bias from the US too because I have seen media reports int he US calling Corbyn a "Communist". He is a socialist for sure, and I think that is a damn good thing in this day and age.
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Gertie
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Re: UK Election 2017

Post by Gertie »

Pretty much agree.

Finally we're getting a real choice thanks to Corbyn. For the first time in ages I'm excited about voting for positive reasons, rather than the lesser of two evils, or throwing my vote away on the Greens.

The problem is Corbyn's starting from so far behind, having been sabotaged by the vested interests of mainstream media and even his own party from day one. Now people are getting to know him and the policies and it's getting close...

The Tories have been a disaster for most Brits, and not even economically competent. May has hubristically made the election about her vs Corbyn like she's some president, not even bothering to cost her manifesto, and being open about cuts to her core supporters (pensioners), she's so cocky she has it in the bag. Turns out she's really unappealing and a weak and wobbly liability, which is very satisfying.

Still, it looks like the Tories will win, and I dread the further and more precipitous callous decline under a Hard Brexited BlueKip Tory government.
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Burning ghost
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Re: UK Election 2017

Post by Burning ghost »

Yeah, I think the money backing them will see the Tories across the finish line first. I would just be happy to see her obvious ploy to destroy the Labour party fail. It is quite clear why she called the snap election (after promising not to to keep Britain stable by not holding a snpa election ... )

A slim victory for the Conservatives is a win for the people. I was really worried about them shoving all opposition out of the picture and I was appalled that they have even tried too. Hopefully this disgraceful act will make more and more people sit up take notice, make them realise in politics there can be REAL choices for the public.

Now closed to 3 points according to polls. I think that means the British public is pretty much safe from an overwhelming Torie majority :)
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Eduk
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Re: UK Election 2017

Post by Eduk »

Sadly political discussion follows the usual human condition of people strongly taking sides who have no expertise and no reasonable cause to believe what they believe as strongly as they do. This is true the world over.
I personally dislike May because she says things like
“If you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.”
“You can only deliver Brexit if you believe in Brexit,”
The last one after supporting remain before the referendum and then never bothering to explain why the change of mind. For me she is opportunistic, Machiavellian and deeply contemptuous of the people she is supposed to represent.
Corbyn on the whole says things which are far less offensive. When asked questions he doesn't want to answer he tends to bumble around and hide a bit, but at least he's not actively the exact opposite of the correct thing, he's just failing to say anything at all. His promises, while not completely objectionable, seem to be a fantasy with no mechanism for success. He is also misguided (in my opinion) but in a much nicer way than May.
I don't wish to vote for either. I see neither as a positive choice. I don't believe either will do a reasonable job. I slightly prefer Corbyn but this is more to do with a dislike for May than a liking of Corbyn.
Regarding the voting for personality thing and voting for policy. This would be nice if policy was clear, intelligible, consistent and not open to change without explanation at a moments notice. I have no idea what the Conservative policy is and I have no idea how the Labour policy could be delivered. Both, for me, are empty and meaningless. Besides the leader of the party is the one who is representing the party, if they are rotten this does not reflect well on the rest of the party, at best the rest of the party is compromised severely.
To wrap up, I am not an expert on politics. I fancy myself to have an okish understanding of philosophy and feel like I can take sentences like May's above and find genuine fault. But the day to day of her job and the policy decisions she makes and the ways in which she is compromised and how best she could actually tackle her job are areas outside of my expertise. It could be that the conservatives as a party are a more capable bunch than the Labour party but I have absolutely no idea.
Does anyone know of any sources who do have expert opinion and are worth listening to? I have yet to find one. For example regarding Brexit I found the opinion of Michael Dougan very informative. He quickly explained how leaving the EU is a massive endeavour with far reaching consequences which the government is absolutely unprepared for and lacks the capacity to tackle. This is trivially true for someone who has spent their life working on a relevant field, but not trivially true for the average person who has no idea what the EU is. The vast majority of people voting in the referendum could have written barely anything accurate about what the EU is or have any reason which justified their decision as strongly as they held it. I personally found myself on Brexit to be about 51% in favour of remaining.
On the UK election I am about 51% in favour of voting for Lib Dems as a tactical vote to stop the conservative. So maybe it's better to say I am 51% opposed to conservatives.
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Burning ghost
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Re: UK Election 2017

Post by Burning ghost »

Eduk -

I think if you look at the policies and look at what each party is saying, we see a huge difference. I cannot remember such are stark contrast before (I am 39 btw).

Some refute Labour costings and I would be surprised if they don't fail on many of their aims.

This piece of satire puts across my opinion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCWpoPg2n7U

VOTE FOR POLICIES NOT PERSONALITIES

I have read both manifestos from Labour and Conservatives. It is clear to me which one has more substance. You decide what matters to you the most and what you deem to be important. It seems pretty obvious we need to remain tied into the EU market and I imagine a reasonable deal is achieveable in which the UK can control unskilled workers coming into the UK and stop coorperation from undermining UK citizens wages. This will lead to some companies moving out of the UK I am sure. That is just something that we have to accept and instead invest in our national services and education. Seems obvious enough to me ... of course excuting this will be an uphill struggle no matter what.

Number one for me is EDUCATION and it always will be.

Who is more capable? I imagine they are all passionate and will all work hard to create a better society. If their policies and ideas don't work they don't work. Conservatives are generally of the mindset that if I earn X then X is mine and I deserve it. The Labour (socialist) view is that if I earn X then I should put some of my earnings into the community.

-- Updated June 2nd, 2017, 11:23 am to add the following --

I should add that raising corporate so much looks like it could be problematic. How this will effect the UK economy is really not something I am sure about, but I imagine short term it will be pretty bad and long term pretty good. It is going to be a gradual increase so although it is a bit worrying I think those at the top will be doing there best to complain about it (for obvious reasons).
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Eduk
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Re: UK Election 2017

Post by Eduk »

Burning Ghost, are you by any chance qualified in any of the fields which pertain to any of the issues?
For example let us say I am interested in Education. I am stuck immediately as I do not know if selective state schools are net good or net bad. I suspect the reality is that they can be either depending on the day to day details of how they are run. There is also a responsibility on the parents and children to aid their own education. Which party will best care for those schools is something I am entirely unable to judge regardless of a bullet point worth of policy.

I am not a fan of exploiting others nor am I a fan of being exploited. Life is not as simple as taking or giving. It matters who you are taking from and how and it matters who you are giving to and how. Neither of these is answered by blanket one sentence long statements which can't possibly define the criteria for successful give and take. As to whether blindly giving is better than blindly taking, I am again unsure and not qualified to answer, for me neither is the right answer (and in reality neither would happen to that extreme).
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Burning ghost
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Re: UK Election 2017

Post by Burning ghost »

Qualified? I lived in the UK so I know a bit about it. I have interest in many things, but I cannot show you a certificate that says "political expert" :)

Read the manifestos and vote according to what matters to you. I certainly don't expect people to agree with me about everything, but I REALLY want people to understand that this is a real choice and will make a big difference to the UK. I am not so fearful now because I was scared that the Conservatives would stomp it and basically be unstoppable. The intent of May was clear and it seriously worried me. Looks like it backfired though.

I don't have any answers for you, sorry. I can voice my opinion about education and debate many tangents from there. Overall what I hear from Labour regarding education is better than the Conservatives (the Lib Dems usually have a good mindset regarding education too, but they are not a viable option at the moment).

For me education is pretty much everything. Children, I believe should be given freedom of choice and that testing should be stopped (no party has said this), because we've seen the effect this can have in Finland. Also, I fear universities being run like businesses in order to simply make profit. I very, VERY strongly believe that education should not be a profit based business. Secondary schools, I believe, should take children in if they can. I don't like the idea of privilege based on economic income. It is a very complex topic and there are many different views as to what education is for and who it serves. I believe education should not serve society or the workplace. I believe education should serve the individual student and that this is achieved by giving children the choice and option to pursue their interests as best as we can provide them with said options.

Right now in the UK teachers, and other pubic sector workers, are under funded and under paid. The Tories have not produced figures on what they will spend on education and their track record is not great in this area because they are happy to let the privileged remain privileged. Labour has shown they intend to put a large amount of funding into education.

The major point is the corporate tax rise (IMHO). We've seen economists making predictions about this or that, and I am not going to pretend I know how reliable their projections are or how reliable Labours projections are. If I remember correctly at least Labour have costed there proposals with 9 billion pounds of wiggle room ... I think we'd all honestly be surprised to see them not go far beyond that because we have seen projections in the past not even close to the original target.

You wish compare to other economies in Europe and other governments. In Germany and many other European nations they have more extensive national services and it works fine. It will be an investment now, and that means it will hurt, but in the long run we'll profit and not a few wealthy individuals (as has happened with the rail services where UK taxpayers money maintains the rail system while a few elites rake in the profits and break contracts left and right essentially stealing from everyone.
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Re: UK Election 2017

Post by Eduk »

No I was looking for something a little more than you live in the UK. For example I use my car to drive to work all the time but if it breaks down I am woefully under qualified to fix it. So I take it to a garage. Where, likewise, I am under qualified to know if they have done a reasonable job or not. I am basically just hoping for the best and hoping my garage is not ripping me off too badly each time I take it in. To give another example I live in a house with a roof and have done my whole life but I'm still unqualified to judge if my roofer has done a good job or not. I seriously wish I knew a good roofer who I could trust.
Opinion without direct relevant expertise is of little value. I, like everyone, also value education. But I don't work in education professionally. I would like expert opinion.
No one seems to have any sources for their political beliefs.
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Burning ghost
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Re: UK Election 2017

Post by Burning ghost »

I understand.

I don't want to say what I do. I can say I am passionate about education and understand a little about it. I am also, quite obviously, interested in different aspect of philosophy and politics has been of interest to me recently for a number of reasons.

I have no idea where you'll find an expert opinion. I can pretty much guarantee that you'll find expert opinions on the same subject can differ quite drastically. Pick what policy you see as most important and then join a forum where they discuss the positives and negatives (say education based forum, or finance, or law). No politician, or human, is 100% correct so we as individuals have to put the work in and figure out what we think is best and vote accordingly (or not if that is your choice.)

The parties are effectively giving you their opinions and then you choose which opinion fits you best.

I spoke up and posted this thread because I was genuinely concerned about an overwhelming majority for the Conservatives. I am necessarily political because I am human. I care about humanity and the general state of the world as a whole.

Expert opinion on education is still a singular opinion. When Finland scored highest in tests people from the US came over to see what they were doing. They didn't believe it worked even though it did. They were of the opinion that their pedagogical ideas were faulty even though they were the most success in the world. They sent "experts" in the field of education.

There is someone on this forum who says they consider themselves an "expert" on Islam. I don't consider myself an expert, but I consider every expert to have bias and opinion because they are human. This of course makes the whole process of knowing who to listen to very difficult. Only you yourself can judge. That is why I repeat that you should probably read the manifestos and then look further afield to others.

My bias is that education is about freedom and education for educations sake, for free and open to all no matter how rich they are. I strongly believe that running school or universities as businesses and using education for immediate monetary profit is repulsive and harmful (to name drop Bill Gates and the founder of the Khan Academy agree with me on this point.) This is my view and my opinion because it makes perfect sense to me, although in practice there are many hurdles to achieve such an ideal (or rather work toward such an ideal and adjust it as and when required.)

I do know that many people who worked on the Stock Markets gambling with billions and billions of dollar thought they were good at their jobs because of the system they used and because they thought they could read the stock exchange better than others. Then mathematician came along and started a company based on an algorithm ... what he showed was that the people who thought they were "good" at their jobs were simply lucky. Then everyone started using his algorithm up to the point of unforeseen and unpredictable global events that shifted the markets. For this sad reason many of the best mathematicians of our age are stolen away from science to work in finance (many physics in the making gone to make money ... sad but true!)

Maybe it is because of all this we are inclined to vote for the person rather than the policy? We look at the complexity of it all and simply choose someone who seems capable. I guess some of us are more inclined to follow policy more than personality, but I imagine this is completely down to the personalities at hand. I am sure there are some people charismatic enough to gain the favour of most people. I just try damn hard (and fail to a degree) to view the information at hand and educate myself and think about the possible implications and outcomes.

My only expertise is being me and some would say I am doing a sorry job of that! haha!

Thanks for making think ;)

-- Updated June 2nd, 2017, 2:26 pm to add the following --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ2ZUEHBdI0

I would say this is more skewed in favour of Labour because the guy for it sounds and looks stronger. There are others I've seen that are more aggressive and even Clegg says Labour are talking rubbish. It just depends on whose opinion you take to be more leveled.

I choose to believe more in university professors than in people working at Westminster. Of course they is no doubt university professors who think Labours tax ideas are beyond stupid too.
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Re: UK Election 2017

Post by Togo1 »

I play a role in regulating the city of london. Does that make me qualified?
Eduk
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Re: UK Election 2017

Post by Eduk »

I don't know, does it?
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Re: UK Election 2017

Post by -1- »

I am a qualification analyst at Gromberg, Gromberg, Gromberg and Dussel.

I am qualified to establish who is qualified. I have the qualifications from Ryerson Polytechnical Institute. I earned it with a four-year Bachelor of Qualifications Degree.

Whoever is not qualified in an area of expertise, furthermore, in ANY area of expertise, is forbidden to talk about any of all the possible issues with Eduk.

That should GREATLY and BLISSFULLY simplify the use of the site.
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Eduk
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Re: UK Election 2017

Post by Eduk »

I thought you weren't talking to me anymore?

Anyway all I've said above is I would appreciate any sources that people recommend on the UK election. Being asked for sources is not code for 'I don't agree with you' it means I would simply like to see some sources. This should not be a contentious request, unless of course you have no sources and the mere act of being asked for sources shows how unreasonable your opinion is. However again, I'm just asking for sources, I have no idea if you have any or not, to be honest I assume that, like me, people are able to make some personal recommendations.

For example Michael Dougan has some good videos up on YouTube around the Brexit debate which I personally have found informative. So if I said something like the present government physically cannot deliver Brexit in the 2 year time frame then I am basing that on what I have learned directly from Michael Dougan. Thus far he has been proven right on that score and he makes the simple argument that these talks take roughly ten years for one trade agreement so negotiating trade agreements with the whole of Europe in a fifth of the time is just something we simply lack the man power for (even if we had the will).

Of course I can speculate that the Tories might lack the will and are deliberately making Brexit impossible. This is pure speculation on my part, there is a chance it is somewhat close to the truth and there is a chance it is miles from the truth but I have no idea and likely never will.
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