Trump's Demand for Loyalty

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Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#1  Postby Fan of Science » July 26th, 2017, 1:58 pm

As an American, I am greatly concerned about the Trump presidency. One of the concerns I have is with regard to Trump's repeated calls for people to be "loyal" to him, personally. This request for "loyalty" is completely inconsistent with how a free society functions, and is fascist in nature. In a free society, any citizen who disagrees with a sitting president, is free to voice their disagreement, and even engage in outright ridicule of a president they disagree with. This has been a long American tradition going back to Washington, our first president. In fact, Washington did not wish to run for a third term because he was tired of being ridiculed so much by the press.

If Trump is successful in pursuing a policy agenda, then people will support him, based on his success. If Trump fails in a policy agenda, then it is our right, as Americans, to criticize the president for his failure. The demand for "loyalty" should have no applicability during those times when Trump is successful, because most rationally-minded people will support his success. Therefore, the calls he makes for "loyalty" are cries for people not to criticize him when he screws up. Why should anyone not hold the president responsible for his failures? How can a society remain free where the citizens are told to be silent, to express their "loyalty," precisely when they should be speaking out against a sitting president for his failures?

Fascist societies call for loyalty oaths. Dictators also often surround themselves with family members, whom they consider to be "loyal" to them as opposed to people who do not share their DNA. The fact that Trump demands loyalty, the fact he surrounds himself with family members, the fact he is outspoken against free-speech, including a free press, shows that he has the hallmarks of a fascist mindset. For that reason alone, he is unfit to be president of the USA -- a nation of laws, not of men.
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Trump's Demand for Loyalty



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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#2  Postby GraphicsGuy » July 26th, 2017, 6:15 pm

It does seem odd that a nation that has been notoriously paranoid of fascist/socialist concepts has now elected what surmounts to a leader with a fascist agenda (if he even has an agenda and isn't simply a buffoon).

Makes me wonder if it is something to do with the times and the minds of the people...they don't want to think, they simply want someone to lead and tell them what to think...?
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#3  Postby Steve3007 » July 27th, 2017, 4:15 am

Trump's narcissism, lies, wild exaggerations, inability to negotiate even with people who are supposed to be on his own side and the fact that he is motivated by a desire to "beat" his predecessor, regardless of the consequences for the society of which he's supposed to be president are now very, very well documented so there's probably not much point going over them again here. But:

In a free society, any citizen who disagrees with a sitting president, is free to voice their disagreement, and even engage in outright ridicule of a president they disagree with.


America still is a free society in this sense isn't it? Everybody still is free to voice their disagreement and ridicule the president and I don't see any sign of that stopping yet. I don't think any amount of ranting by Trump about how much he dislikes it is going to change it.


Fascist societies call for loyalty oaths.


So we can argue about whether or not Trump would like, in his ideal world, to be a fascist leader of a fascist society. But he isn't one.
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#4  Postby Burning ghost » July 27th, 2017, 5:10 am

Is "loyalty" the new dirty word?

Make your mind up .. does he "demand", "request" or what exactly?

I am not defending Trump simply asking you if your statement is loaded with its own particular agenda or not?

Also, if you work with people do you ask for loyalty or not? Would it be better is he said "Please be disloyal and lie to me?" Does he ask for blind obedience? YOu may choose to insinuate that, but others may not.

Is "fascism" necessarily "bad"?

-- Updated July 27th, 2017, 5:13 am to add the following --

"a nation of laws, not of men."

What do you mean by that?
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#5  Postby Razblo » July 27th, 2017, 5:39 am

Fan of Science wrote:As an American, I am greatly concerned about the Trump presidency. One of the concerns I have is with regard to Trump's repeated calls for people to be "loyal" to him, personally. This request for "loyalty" is completely inconsistent with how a free society functions, and is fascist in nature. In a free society, any citizen who disagrees with a sitting president, is free to voice their disagreement, and even engage in outright ridicule of a president they disagree with. This has been a long American tradition going back to Washington, our first president. In fact, Washington did not wish to run for a third term because he was tired of being ridiculed so much by the press.

If Trump is successful in pursuing a policy agenda, then people will support him, based on his success. If Trump fails in a policy agenda, then it is our right, as Americans, to criticize the president for his failure. The demand for "loyalty" should have no applicability during those times when Trump is successful, because most rationally-minded people will support his success. Therefore, the calls he makes for "loyalty" are cries for people not to criticize him when he screws up. Why should anyone not hold the president responsible for his failures? How can a society remain free where the citizens are told to be silent, to express their "loyalty," precisely when they should be speaking out against a sitting president for his failures?

Fascist societies call for loyalty oaths. Dictators also often surround themselves with family members, whom they consider to be "loyal" to them as opposed to people who do not share their DNA. The fact that Trump demands loyalty, the fact he surrounds himself with family members, the fact he is outspoken against free-speech, including a free press, shows that he has the hallmarks of a fascist mindset. For that reason alone, he is unfit to be president of the USA -- a nation of laws, not of men.

Could you,please, supply the actual "loyalty" quote or quotes? I regard any such report as a 'nothing burger' worthy of zero discussion unless the evidence and context is clear. If evidence and context is not clear then, sure, a discussion of the phenomenon of propagandist 'nothing burgesr' may be worthy of discussion in itself.
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#6  Postby Greta » July 27th, 2017, 5:40 am

Many politicians demand loyalty. Rest assured that if department heads do anything that a minister deems "disloyal" they won't have a job for much longer, although neither would dare admit this publicly.

Also, in Australia we have a media game when our leaders become unpopular which could be called "Are you loyal to your party leader?". Of course declarations of loyalty to the party leader are often followed by a challenge. Sometimes a declaration of loyalty by a politician is basically a Judas kiss.
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#7  Postby -1- » July 27th, 2017, 6:25 am

They say the only currency in politics is loyalty.

I am fascinated by the nation's fascination with Trump. He is the president. The president has no power other than veto power. All other powers s/he has is given to him/her by reputation, by people's assuming that s/he has power. "ooh, he's a president, ummm, head of the most powerful country in the world.... ummm, big power." No power. The founding fathers made sure that the president has no power, as they feared that that would lead to a tyrannical situation.

Power corrupts. So let there be no power.

-- Updated 2017 July 27th, 6:32 am to add the following --

Hence the demand for loyalty.

The president can't order civil servants to be fired, to be hired, to establish their salaries. Instead, he will say to the applicable secretary of state, "hey, hay, choohay, establish this policy please, pronto," and the sec of state does it. The secretary of state has the executive power, the president does not.

The secretary of state could say to the prez, "fu", and that'd be the end of the policy. And of the sec of st, as well. So he does not say "fu".

We've reached an evolution in the system of the governance of the US where the president CAN become a tyrant, but s/he can only do it by demanding absolute loyalty.

Hence Trump demands and requests and implores and commands loyalty. Without that, he is toast. Someone told him that.
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#8  Postby Steve3007 » July 27th, 2017, 6:36 am

Greta:

Also, in Australia we have a media game when our leaders become unpopular which could be called "Are you loyal to your party leader?". Of course declarations of loyalty to the party leader are often followed by a challenge. Sometimes a declaration of loyalty by a politician is basically a Judas kiss.


Same in the UK. As a general rule, if a member of the cabinet says "I have every confidence that the Prime Minister will lead us to victory and I look forward to serving under him/her for many years to come" it means "I will shortly start briefing to my contacts in the Press against the Prime Minister and making grandiose statements about geopolitics in order to make myself look like a statesman and position myself for a leadership challenge."
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#9  Postby -1- » July 27th, 2017, 6:47 am

Steve3007: Has any member of the cabinet come out of it recently? (*Careful.)

-- Updated 2017 July 27th, 6:47 am to add the following --

and if yes, how did it help or unhelp their popularity?
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#10  Postby Steve3007 » July 27th, 2017, 7:46 am

Steve3007: Has any member of the cabinet come out of it recently? (*Careful.)


I'm not sure without checking the News (and I can't be bothered to do that right now.) What has happened recently is that the general election which was was called by the Prime Minister and which happened in June resulted in her being severely weakened and vulnerable to a leadership challenge. Hence the reason why she's been talking a lot recently about how important loyalty is. And I think people like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove may well be positioning themselves for a leadership challenge. I can't remember the exact News stories to back this up, but I'm sure Gove has recently been talking about geo-political issues in a way that looks designed to make him seem like Prime Minister material.
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#11  Postby -1- » July 27th, 2017, 7:51 am

Steve3007 wrote:
Steve3007: Has any member of the cabinet come out of it recently? (*Careful.)


I'm not sure without checking the News (and I can't be bothered to do that right now.) What has happened recently is that the general election which was was called by the Prime Minister and which happened in June resulted in her being severely weakened and vulnerable to a leadership challenge. Hence the reason why she's been talking a lot recently about how important loyalty is. And I think people like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove may well be positioning themselves for a leadership challenge. I can't remember the exact News stories to back this up, but I'm sure Gove has recently been talking about geo-political issues in a way that looks designed to make him seem like Prime Minister material.

Thanks! Thorough, well-thought out, informed and informative answer.

But what I was actually looking for, was your naming those cabinet members who recently announced their homosexuality publicly.
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#12  Postby Steve3007 » July 27th, 2017, 7:56 am

Apparently, Boris Johnson's wife has told him she doesn't want him to be leader and he has insisted he is loyal to Theresa May:

thetimes.co.uk/article/wife-marina-whee ... -ccnt0wcbp

So he's definitely going for a leadership challenge.

No recent outings of gay politicians as far as I'm aware. But the (former) leader of the Liberal Democrats did recently resign from that position mostly because he's religious and proud of it. That can't be tolerated. In the UK we generally don't like openly religious politicians. It grates.
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#13  Postby Razblo » July 27th, 2017, 8:07 am

Steve3007 wrote:Apparently, Boris Johnson's wife has told him she doesn't want him to be leader and he has insisted he is loyal to Theresa May:



So he's definitely going for a leadership challenge.

No recent outings of gay politicians as far as I'm aware. But the (former) leader of the Liberal Democrats did recently resign from that position mostly because he's religious and proud of it. That can't be tolerated. In the UK we generally don't like openly religious politicians. It grates.

Are you synonymous in opinion with this "we" whom generally does not like openly religious politicians? Are they grating to you personally? Do you personally find them intolerable?
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#14  Postby Supine » July 27th, 2017, 6:26 pm

Fan of Science wrote:As an American, I am greatly concerned about the Trump presidency.


I'm not.

One of the concerns I have is with regard to Trump's repeated calls for people to be "loyal" to him, personally.




I did not get the memo from Trump that every person in the USA is suppose to be loyal to him.


This request for "loyalty" is completely inconsistent with how a free society functions, and is fascist in nature. In a free society, any citizen who disagrees with a sitting president, is free to voice their disagreement, and even engage in outright ridicule of a president they disagree with. This has been a long American tradition going back to Washington, our first president. In fact, Washington did not wish to run for a third term because he was tired of being ridiculed so much by the press.

If Trump is successful in pursuing a policy agenda, then people will support him, based on his success. If Trump fails in a policy agenda, then it is our right, as Americans, to criticize the president for his failure. The demand for "loyalty" should have no applicability during those times when Trump is successful, because most rationally-minded people will support his success. Therefore, the calls he makes for "loyalty" are cries for people not to criticize him when he screws up. Why should anyone not hold the president responsible for his failures? How can a society remain free where the citizens are told to be silent, to express their "loyalty," precisely when they should be speaking out against a sitting president for his failures?

Fascist societies call for loyalty oaths. Dictators also often surround themselves with family members, whom they consider to be "loyal" to them as opposed to people who do not share their DNA. The fact that Trump demands loyalty, the fact he surrounds himself with family members, the fact he is outspoken against free-speech, including a free press, shows that he has the hallmarks of a fascist mindset. For that reason alone, he is unfit to be president of the USA -- a nation of laws, not of men.


Is this damning commentary on the American Two-Party-Fascist system? :shock:

The American political system has long boasted how superior its Two Party system is to multiple party democracies. The boasting that democracy is more than one party but best never to exceed two parties. And within that system Two Party system has long strutted around like proud peacocks that blind loyalty and obedience to the party is central to American democratic success.

Any President should demand people in his cabinet be loyal to him. Frankly, that goes with most organizations. You think you can run a successful corporation as CEO if everyone does whatever they want and some actively try to undermine the company? Ought the NACCP hire on white members of the KKK? Should LGBTQ organizations hire on anti-LGBTQ people that actively work to undermined LGBTQ goals?

The United States does not have a 3 branch government anymore only, it has a 4 branch government at minimum. The 4th is the intelligence community which operates above the law and without accountability.

-- Updated July 27th, 2017, 4:47 pm to add the following --

Burning ghost wrote:Is "loyalty" the new dirty word?

Make your mind up .. does he "demand", "request" or what exactly?

I am not defending Trump simply asking you if your statement is loaded with its own particular agenda or not?

Also, if you work with people do you ask for loyalty or not? Would it be better is he said "Please be disloyal and lie to me?" Does he ask for blind obedience? YOu may choose to insinuate that, but others may not.

Is "fascism" necessarily "bad"?

-- Updated July 27th, 2017, 5:13 am to add the following --

"a nation of laws, not of men."

What do you mean by that?



The word "loyalty" was not bad when some Democrats got upset with Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard for not being loyal to the Party and supporting Hillary Clinton.

nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/0 ... e-sanders/

Representative Tulsi Gabbard, Democrat of Hawaii, resigned as a vice chairwoman of the Democratic National Committee on Sunday in order to endorse Senator Bernie Sanders for president.

The endorsement came a day after Hillary Clinton won the Democratic primary in South Carolina by a huge margin — she captured nearly 74 percent of the vote — in a signal of her support in the South right before several other Southern states vote in Tuesday’s primaries.

Ms. Gabbard explained her decision in a video on YouTube in which she said that, as a military veteran, she wanted the United States to avoid “interventionist wars of regime change.”




The Democratic Party is a party of warmongers in the pockets of the military industrial complex. Just like the Republican Party. As if the military industrial complex would be like, "You know, it is unfair to just get Republicans in our pockets, we must stay away from tainting Democratic politicians." Yeah, sure.

The Russians are coming? Putin has more bilocation powers than Satan (interesting, since Satan is supposed to be a fictional character but Reps and Dems ascribe to Putin all supernatural, all knowing, all tempting, all wickedness powers of Satan to Putin)?

Well... I'll tell you one place the Russians (and Iranians) are coming to make $$$$ after the US Government spent over $1 trillion on the Iraqi fiasco and sent home many American wounded and some American dead. Halburton and the military industrial complex made off ($$$) big time I bet though. With Bush invading and Obama playing multiple sides (opposing sides too) of the conflict, the Iraqis are like: "Maybe it might be wise not to trust the Americans?" Ya, think?


Full article: newsweek.com/us-ally-russia-military-su ... ing-641846

U.S. Ally Iraq Turns to Russia for Military Support, Oil Deals and Nation Building
By Tom O'Connor On 7/25/17 at 3:18 PM


Iraq's vice president has reached out to Russia during a high-profile visit, saying he seeks closer ties with Moscow after 14 consecutive years of U.S. military intervention in his country.


After meeting with Lavrov and Matviyenko, Maliki flew to St. Petersburg to speak with Russian President Vladimir Putin himself to discuss a major purchase of T-90 battle tanks in a contract that could exceed $1 billion, Reuters cited Russian military officials and analysts in local media as saying. Maliki also thanked Putin for Russia's role in combating ISIS and other jihadist groups in the Middle East.


"Russia has made a tremendous contribution, in particular in Syria and Iraq, to prevent the disintegration of the region. We sincerely thank you," Maliki told Putin, according to Tass. "Were it not for your role, the map of the region would have changed now, and negatively for us."
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post Number:#15  Postby Fan of Science » July 27th, 2017, 8:56 pm

Supine, why are you bringing up something as irrelevant as the Democrats? Rather bizarre. Are you trying to justify Trump's bad behavior by pulling the old trick that others may have done something offensive as well? That's part of what is wrong with Trump --- he is so crazed that he never takes responsibility for his attacks against the First Amendment, the press, the truth, but instead brings up "Hillary" every time he is on the ropes. Here are the facts: Trump can be wrong, and fascist, while others are also in the wrong as well. Trump cannot, however, ever justify his wrongful conduct by hiding behind someone else's failures.

Trump has called for loyalty to him, and not just by cabinet members. Even for cabinet members, they should not have loyalty to him, but to the Constitution. Trump is president Trump, not dictator Trump, King Trump, but our public employee who is supposed to serve us, and be loyal to us, not the other way around.
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