Trump's Demand for Loyalty

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Fan of Science
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Joined: May 26th, 2017, 1:39 pm

Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Fan of Science »

He targeted a president of a union who stated that he was not saving anywhere near the jobs he claimed in a speech. He targeted a lady comedian for making a joke about him. He targets news journalists for speaking out against him. He targeted a novelist, a TV late-night show host, and others. He attacked Jon Stewart with blatant anti-Semitism. He goes on twitter attacks where he insults people who say things he does not like, and his followers often follow-up with death-threats towards those people. Since when is it consistent with freedom of speech for a sitting President to personally target private citizens who voice their opposition? It's not. Trump has also advocated for eliminating First Amendment protections that are presently in place to protect people against unfounded defamation suits by public figures. Trump himself even sued a comedian for joking that Trump's mother was an ape. The case got quickly tossed out of court, but the very fact he uses such lawsuits to intimidate people into silence is offensive to the basic principles of freedom. This isn't a partisan issue either, it goes to the heart of our republican form of government.
Steve3007
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Steve3007 »

I guess some people would still argue that a lot of the examples you give there are examples of Trump using his own right to freedom of speech, not suppressing it in others. But I accept your point that a president should be held to a higher standard. If we want to find a silver lining in all of this, maybe it is in the thought that "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger". I agree with your central point that Trump gives every indication that he aspires to be the classic populist dictator, drawing energy from the adulation of his fans with no dissenting voices to be heard, but if he doesn't succeed in that aim (and he doesn't seem to be succeeding so far) maybe it all serves as a test of American freedom of speech which it will pass?

-- Updated Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:12 pm to add the following --

I suppose this all extends to the wider issues surrounding freedom of speech: In a society where legal representation can be bought, clearly in practice the rich and powerful have more access to free speech than others because they can intimidate others with their access to expensive lawyers.

Is there anything we should do about that?
Fan of Science
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Fan of Science »

In the post-Trump world, facts do not matter. If it rained during his speech on inauguration day, but he claims God stopped the rain for his speech, then no number of videos showing it raining while Trump gave his speech matters. If Trump claims humans are not causing the climate to change, then no amount of laboratory evidence demonstrating otherwise matters. If Trump claims vaccines cause autism, then no amount of medical evidence matters. If Trump alleges conspiracy theories that he believes from nut-jobs on social media, then the truth does not matter. The truth does not matter to Trump or his followers. You can speak the truth to them, but they will simply call it "fake news" and ignore what you have to say. A normal person would be influenced by the truth. Since the truth no longer matters, for the President and his followers, how is telling them the truth going to affect them? It won't.

He demands people be fired for speaking out against him, and he is fully aware that when he targets a person on his twitter account that the person ends up receiving numerous death threats from his fans. Go tell Kathy Griffin that she not targeted by Trump for making a joke. It's a long-standing tradition in the USA to make jokes about a sitting President. Trump is apparently under the mistaken belief that joking about the President is an offense that warrants their termination and an investigation by the secret service.

Americans of all political stripes should be outraged at such offensive conduct by a sitting President. But, instead of supporting a rule of law, instead of supporting principles of freedom, many Americans prefer to sell their souls to a flawed man and give them their "loyalty" so he can continue to thumb his nose at the principles of liberty. These are the weak-willed people who need someone to lead them by the nose.

-- Updated July 28th, 2017, 12:13 pm to add the following --

It's not freedom of speech for a sitting President to use his office power to target those who speak out against him. That's a violation of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech addresses the issue of the government's power to silence someone. The First Amendment also protects private news agencies, which Trump has repeatedly targeted as President. If Trump was a private individual, then I would agree he would be exercising his freedom of speech, but, as a government official, the situation changes. It's like a police officer while wearing his uniform cannot tell you off for criticizing Trump, without violating the First Amendment, but as a private party, while off the job, he could do so without violating the First Amendment. So the law requires a government official to keep certain personal views to themselves while in their official capacity. Trump is officially the President 24/7.
Steve3007
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Steve3007 »

If truth doesn't matter then what does? Results. I don't know, but I suspect that most Trump voters don't care about what people they regard as part of the "establishment" claim is true of false. The obvious falsehoods such as the weather on inauguration day would be regarded as unimportant and anything less obvious than that would be regarded as sufficiently open to interpretation that it's not worth the effort of attempting to discover the truth. They care about their own lives. Trump has promised things that will improve those lives. When life carries on pretty much as it did before, with no miraculous growth in heavy industry jobs, no wall, no Hilary in jail and no Obamacare repeal, won't he simply be hung out to dry by the people who judge by results? Won't he be hung by his own petard?
Fan of Science
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Fan of Science »

Trump's lies are all over the place, and also are embedded in his policies. For example, he lied about free-trade causing unskilled, high-paying manufacturing jobs to disappear. This is economically false. Most of those jobs disappeared because of technological innovation, and none of those jobs are coming back. Coal jobs also disappeared because of the rise in the natural gas industry, not because of a Democratic conspiracy to wipe out coal, and those jobs are not coming back. A trade deficit has virtually nothing to do with currency manipulation, but is linked to the amount of savings the domestic population engages in. We in America spend more than we earn, which results in a balance of trade deficit. In Germany, the opposite is the case, and they have a balance of trade surplus. So, Trump lied about the cause of a trade deficit, which requires increased saving on the part of Americans to eradicate, and will not disappear by making claims about currency manipulation by China.

The lies during inauguration day were for purposes of illustration. Trump constantly lies about pretty much everything, and his political agenda is based on these lies. His fans simply don't care about reality. The problem for them and Trump is that the converse is also true --- reality does not bend to the will of Trump's made-up fantastical claims.
Fooloso4
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Fooloso4 »

Has anyone asked what Trump means by loyalty? Does he mean blind, unquestionable obedience? Is the voice of dissent whether public or private disloyalty? Does it mean putting Trump’s interests ahead of those of the country?

One hint at what Trump means might lie in the question of why he denied he asked Comey for loyalty and then spin it to say that it would not be inappropriate to ask for loyalty to the country.He either does not distinguish between loyalty to him and loyalty to the country or he is aware of the difference and denied he asked for loyalty from Comey and then deflected by changing the question to loyalty to the country. He also said, however, that it would have been inappropriate to ask Comey for his loyalty.

Another hint is that loyalty is for him a one way street. This suggests that he sees it as a kind of obedience, a pledge to do his bidding whatever the personal cost may be.
Supine
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Supine »

Fan of Science wrote:Razbio calls blatant lies from the President, trivial, and others on here support his lies as well. These are the people who don't give a crap about freedom. For them, supporting a fascist President who can't even tell the truth about being rained on while giving his inauguration speech, an easily verifiable fact, means that freedom is dead in the USA. After all, if one cannot speak truth to power, then what good is freedom of speech? A President who has promoted conspiracy theories, science denial, and compulsive lying from the White House is not someone concerned with the well-being of others, and certainly not what is in the best interests of America. Trump only cares about himself, which is why, as a typical fascist, he demands loyalty, even from a group of boyscouts.

An average thug on the street who lies is not remotely as harmful as a President who lies. As President, Trump should be held to a higher moral standard, not a lower one. When leaders behave immorally, which includes lying repeatedly, targeting private citizens who voice negative opinions of Trump, it reduces the USA to a banana republic.
Well I guess it's been a Banana Republic for a long time then.

Dana Milbank - In Washington, Party Loyalty Is Everything

Published on Jan 31, 2008
Published year 2008?! :shock: Trump must have been in the White House then because under him misbehaving was brought into the Federal Political sphere. :lol:

Didn't Republicans run a boy prostitution service ring in the White House during one of the Bush family presidencies? I think so but I can't remember exactly. I mean it was not 13 year-old boys but like 20 year-old male prostitutes or something.


Back when going "back to work" meant more to Democrats than morality, now all of a sudden they are like blushing virgins that can't believe their ears. They preach more morality than the Pope.

Billy Clinton was flying around to big time hooker islands or whatever it was. Not that I care. Some of the girls there were under age 18 though but powerful men have always been involved in things like this. They were probably grabbing women by their kittens before Trump ever was caught joking about it on recording.
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Razblo
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Razblo »

Fan of something. Kathy Griffen? Targeting her joke? That was just a career move for her that didn't pay off. She gambled and lost. And anyway, it was disgusting.

-- Updated July 28th, 2017, 10:21 pm to add the following --
Steve3007 wrote:Another couple of questions:

Can you see any upsides to global trade? If you see it as "all the same", then do you believe there is no point to any concepts of international law?

Do you favour nationalism in trade because you think that the boundaries to completely free trade should coincide with the boundaries of democratically created laws? i.e. is one of your objections to global free trade that there is no truly enforceable global law?

-- Updated Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:35 pm to add the following --

Do you think that nations should not trade with each other at all?
nations trade globally. It doesn't require any move toward a global government.

'International law'. Examples of specific laws under this heading?

'Enforceable global law'. Who is the enforcer? How does one become the enforcer?

-- Updated July 28th, 2017, 10:23 pm to add the following --

Reading fan of something's posts is like listening to CNN.
Steve3007
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Steve3007 »

Razblo:
nations trade globally. It doesn't require any move toward a global government.
So I guess you're not opposed to these nations trading globally? You're not opposed to the existence of global trade? Global trade needs agreements and treaties between pairs of countries or groups of countries to establish the rules under which that trade is conducted. In a democracy, law is an agreement - like a treaty - within a country. International law is an extension of that idea to agreements between countries. Therefore if you accept the existence of global trade then you accept the need for some forms of mutually agreed international laws.
'International law'. Examples of specific laws under this heading?
WTO rules. Rules regarding conduct during conflicts. etc.

Laws are simply agreements as to how to behave, whether those agreements are between the elected representative in a country or whether they are between the governments of different countries. Who is the enforcer? Enforcement is generally attempted under the umbrella of the UN. You'll probably make various cynical comments about the effectiveness, corruption or other failings of the UN. But those comments would all be beside the point. You could make similar cynical comments about national judiciaries and police forces. They wouldn't alter the fact that the answer to the question "who enforces national laws?" would be "the judiciary and the police."
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Burning ghost
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Burning ghost »

The organisations are basically set up by rich people to stay rich and get richer. Some people with dosh are nice too, but they inevitably indoctrinated into the system and stuck in a moral paradox about how they got rich and what they can do.

What we should be wary of is open attacks in any direction in the media. Prolonged and sustained attacks against any ideology or persons is a sure sign of someone wanting to influence public opinion. As to who and what their motivations are we can only do our own digging and make guesses.

Distraction is a very useful tool. Better off ignoring the sound bites and watching the attacks (ALL the attacks you can rather than the ones being thrust into your face.)

You know this, just a friendly reminder ;)
AKA badgerjelly
Steve3007
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Steve3007 »

Burning ghost: Do you have anything to actually say?
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Razblo
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Razblo »

Steve3007 wrote:Razblo:
nations trade globally. It doesn't require any move toward a global government.
So I guess you're not opposed to these nations trading globally? You're not opposed to the existence of global trade? Global trade needs agreements and treaties between pairs of countries or groups of countries to establish the rules under which that trade is conducted. In a democracy, law is an agreement - like a treaty - within a country. International law is an extension of that idea to agreements between countries. Therefore if you accept the existence of global trade then you accept the need for some forms of mutually agreed international laws.
'International law'. Examples of specific laws under this heading?
WTO rules. Rules regarding conduct during conflicts. etc.

Laws are simply agreements as to how to behave, whether those agreements are between the elected representative in a country or whether they are between the governments of different countries. Who is the enforcer? Enforcement is generally attempted under the umbrella of the UN. You'll probably make various cynical comments about the effectiveness, corruption or other failings of the UN. But those comments would all be beside the point. You could make similar cynical comments about national judiciaries and police forces. They wouldn't alter the fact that the answer to the question "who enforces national laws?" would be "the judiciary and the police."
Easier to publicly scrutinize toward an impetus to clean up, using a local national political structure, a national or state judiciary and police. The UN is a runaway cart without a horse.

So, do you have a list available of WTO rules?

Of course businesses within nations should trade with businesses in other nations. That isn't what is usually meant by 'globalism'.
Steve3007
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Steve3007 »

So, do you have a list available of WTO rules?
No, but I presume the WTO proabably does. Maybe here:

wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e ... act2_e.htm
That isn't what is usually meant by 'globalism'.
If it is not about global trade and internationally agreed rules that attempt to govern that trade what, in your view, is meant by "globalism"? (Apart from meaning that we're all victims of a global conspiracy to enslave or kill us involving most of the rich and powerful people in the world who all play golf together while hatching their dastardly plots.)
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Razblo
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Razblo »

Steve3007 wrote:
So, do you have a list available of WTO rules?
No, but I presume the WTO proabably does. Maybe here:

wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e ... act2_e.htm
That isn't what is usually meant by 'globalism'.
If it is not about global trade and internationally agreed rules that attempt to govern that trade what, in your view, is meant by "globalism"? (Apart from meaning that we're all victims of a global conspiracy to enslave or kill us involving most of the rich and powerful people in the world who all play golf together while hatching their dastardly plots.)
The formation of a parliament in a form such as the EU would be my example of 'globalism'. The UN could be another, particularly when one considers its 'Agenda 21' concept. 'Globalism' as in a one world government. An effect would be no private ownership of homes or land and no private ownership of farms and general food production. Government farms. Then there would be total control of movement which getting people out of privately owned vehicles lends toward. Driverless cars would suit this end. In San Bernadino CA they have only just, in the last 2 days, approved a new 20% tax on petrol toward such things as widening freeways which are also planned to have high concrete walls on each side with periodically positioned guard towers along the route. The residents of this area were not asked for their input and, in fact, city councilors attempted to hold meetings in private. Some locals did make discovery about such meetings and agenda and so therefore forced their way in to make their voices heard and feelings felt. San Bernadino is an example of Agenda 21.
Steve3007
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Re: Trump's Demand for Loyalty

Post by Steve3007 »

OK. Got it. Have fun with that.
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