Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

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Razblo
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by Razblo »

Prothero wrote:

Is it good for the society or the future if all the doctors, lawyers, CEO's, and professors, etc. are privileged whites? Don't we as a society have some obligation to acknowledge the results of decades of open discrimination?
I want access to the best doctor or lawyer based on their merit, their ability, not what color they are. Affirmative action only decreases standards.
Eduk
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by Eduk »

Yes. That was a response to this claim of yours: "The arguments for affirmative action policies to ensure both ethnic (racial) and socioeconomic diversity at the university level are also strong."
I didn't sat that?
That is irrelevant. When you think your circumstances have changed for the better you can re-take the test and re-apply.
But then you could simply complain it wasn't fair that I got to take the test twice, surely you would have improved upon your score with a 2nd try?
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GE Morton
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by GE Morton »

Eduk wrote:
Yes. That was a response to this claim of yours: "The arguments for affirmative action policies to ensure both ethnic (racial) and socioeconomic diversity at the university level are also strong."
I didn't sat that?
Sorry, my mistake. That was Prothero's claim, not yours. Yours was, " . . . there is no shortage of studies to suggest diversity is preferable to homogeneity."

The same argument applies. If you claim that "studies show X," then it is your obligation to cite such a study. And if you're using that study to support your own position, to defend it.
But then you could simply complain it wasn't fair that I got to take the test twice, surely you would have improved upon your score with a 2nd try?
Then I can take the test again also. Since anyone can re-take the test, I would have no grounds for charging "unfairness."

You're reaching, Eduk.
Eduk
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by Eduk »

Not really.

I'm pretty sure you would like to live in a just and fair society the same as the majority of people.

It's just that for me university admission policy is not straight forward, black and white, with clear categories which everyone fits into perfectly. I am a fan of the lesson within to kill a mockingbird which says that there should be rules which apply to the majority but that there are exceptions.

But this is not a simple concept that I can write one post about and hope to capture fully. Really it needs a whole book on the topic of university admission alone. Something I'm just not capable of.

The strong take advantage of the weak. But this does not mean mental or physical strength, although it can, it also means political and monetary strength.

Under a system of first to one mark then this system of strong over weak will remain and strengthen. Now this is simply unlikely to give best results. Just look at hidden figures, the movie, for an example of how necessity trumps bias.

In the UK areas with good schools have increased house prices. Is this fair to all children?
I personally know people from dodgy families and they didn't do so well at life. Were they thick or does abuse have a real cost?
There are of course unending examples of circumstances which happen to children which I don't think even you would call fair.
So the question is what to do about it. Nothing at all as you suggest. Or attempt to weight results.
What is the overall cost to society? Are children who are helped out of their background more helped than a different child would be?

For me it raises tough questions. Which don't have easy answers. In fact I've offered no answers at all, only questions.

Of course you could argue that its not the role of university admission to help to fix societal problems and that they should be fixed elsewhere.

For example I'm not sure if you value diversity in general or not. If every child had the same upbringing do you think universities would be naturally diverse. Or do you believe humans are not generally equal?
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Razblo
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by Razblo »

Eduk wrote:

For example I'm not sure if you value diversity in general or not. If every child had the same upbringing do you think universities would be naturally diverse. Or do you believe humans are not generally equal?
Humans will never be equal, psychologically, emotionally, intellectually, physically, and so on and so on.
Eduk
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by Eduk »

You seem to have ignored most of my post?

I also used the word generally. I didn't say all humans are the exact same. If for example you took all the ethnic groups in the world would you expect to see the overall grades of each group/per person to be roughly equal.
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Razblo
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by Razblo »

Eduk wrote:You seem to have ignored most of my post?

I also used the word generally. I didn't say all humans are the exact same. If for example you took all the ethnic groups in the world would you expect to see the overall grades of each group/per person to be roughly equal.
I doubt that. Apparently there are different levels of IQ, generally, between ethnic groups due to genealogy associated with cold vs warm climates. Also, intelligence or emotional factors are affected by inbreeding caused by a cultural practice of families created by generation after generation first cousin sexual partnering.

The thing about 'diversity' politics is that it seems to try to make everyone as same as possible. In making it easier for one person to get through a series of tests than another encourages that person to perhaps take a route other than where they were best suited and where they would be more successful. Diversity politics would tend to create less diversity while at the same time lowering standards in various fields.

-- Updated August 8th, 2017, 5:05 am to add the following --

Gender also affects, generally, natural proclivity toward particular fields of interest and work.

-- Updated August 8th, 2017, 5:09 am to add the following --
Eduk wrote:You seem to have ignored most of my post?
And I didn't ignore most of your post. I just chose to respond to an aspect. It's a feature of diversity that I wanted to respond to something in particular. I am not something you, or politics, wants me to be. Diversity in action.
Eduk
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by Eduk »

Surely inbreeding isn't an ethnic trait, I don't understand the correlation?

Also the studies which claim a difference in cold/warm genealogy are pretty contentious and certainly shouldn't be considered fact. I suspect the only people who do are those who have already decided they are right.

I am not a fan of 'diversity' politics. But I am much more open minded about diversity politics. How to separate the two is the key thing here. Genuine diversity is different from fake diversity. You could argue that 'diversity' politics only leads to fake diversity. But can you argue that diversity politics leads to fake diversity.
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Razblo
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

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Eduk wrote:Surely inbreeding isn't an ethnic trait, I don't understand the correlation?

Also the studies which claim a difference in cold/warm genealogy are pretty contentious and certainly shouldn't be considered fact. I suspect the only people who do are those who have already decided they are right.

I am not a fan of 'diversity' politics. But I am much more open minded about diversity politics. How to separate the two is the key thing here. Genuine diversity is different from fake diversity. You could argue that 'diversity' politics only leads to fake diversity. But can you argue that diversity politics leads to fake diversity.
Sure, people tend to steer away from contentious science but then it's usually political and social survival reasons for doing so.

"Surely inbreeding isn't an ethnic trait, I don't understand the correlation?"

Culture is often a feature of 'diversity' politics

-- Updated August 8th, 2017, 5:28 am to add the following --
Eduk wrote:Surely inbreeding isn't an ethnic trait, I don't understand the correlation?
It's interesting you brought up 'ethnic traits' though. So, yeah, there exists traits. 'Traits' other than historic social structures.
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by Eduk »

I meant scientifically contentious. It is not the consensus opinion of experts, if I can put it that way.

It is somewhat worrying to me that the terms PC (which is meant as a derogatory term) and 'lefty' (which is likewise meant as a derogatory term) are flung at people who don't believe that discrimination is morally acceptable or even acceptable in purely selfish terms of their own personal quality of life.

One policy which is aimed at tackling discrimination but does not do so does not mean that all policies don't work or that the attempt is not valid.

Personally I would rather it was taken as factual that discrimination exists and should be prevented. And then argue about whether policy A is good or bad on those terms. Whereas at the moment we can't even agree that there even is such a thing as discrimination or that if there is anything should be done about it.

It all reads like a very PC form of racism to me. Full of dog whistles. And entirely unproductive.

I don't think we have managed to debate a single thing thus far? All we have done is pointlessly argue.
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Razblo
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by Razblo »

Eduk wrote:I meant scientifically contentious. It is not the consensus opinion of experts, if I can put it that way.

It is somewhat worrying to me that the terms PC (which is meant as a derogatory term) and 'lefty' (which is likewise meant as a derogatory term) are flung at people who don't believe that discrimination is morally acceptable or even acceptable in purely selfish terms of their own personal quality of life.

One policy which is aimed at tackling discrimination but does not do so does not mean that all policies don't work or that the attempt is not valid.

Personally I would rather it was taken as factual that discrimination exists and should be prevented. And then argue about whether policy A is good or bad on those terms. Whereas at the moment we can't even agree that there even is such a thing as discrimination or that if there is anything should be done about it.

It all reads like a very PC form of racism to me. Full of dog whistles. And entirely unproductive.

I don't think we have managed to debate a single thing thus far? All we have done is pointlessly argue.
Consensus? That word again. There has to be a will to look in a certain direction. That is why I said this "Sure, people tend to steer away from contentious science but then it's usually political and social survival reasons for doing so." I should have added "professional survival".

Well, you know, 'Affirmative Action' IS based on discrimination, particularly racial discrimination.
Eduk
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by Eduk »

Who is discriminating against whom?
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Razblo
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by Razblo »

An authority discriminates against Asian and White students by the demand they score higher than a black student for the same education position.
Eduk
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by Eduk »

Who is the authority?
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Razblo
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Re: Affirmative Action Under Trump/Sessions

Post by Razblo »

Eduk wrote:Who is the authority?
Government authority

-- Updated August 8th, 2017, 8:47 am to add the following --

Universities are legally allowed to consider race as one of several factors when evaluating a student, but a university must be able to prove it has no other way of achieving such diversity in a race-neutral way.
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