Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Steve3007 »

I am interested in examining the surprisingly difficult question of how we can decide if a politician or a journalist can objectively and fairly be deemed to have told the truth or a falsehood. I'd like to examine it by considering a very particular example which is currently in the UK media. I apologize in advance to non-British people who might find this example a bit parochial and local.


In the run-up to the vote on whether the UK should leave the EU (the "Brexit" vote) one of the claims made was that if we left the EU we would be better off by £350 million per week because this is the UK contribution to the EU coffers. It was alleged that this figure is misleading because about £80 million per week comes straight back in the form of rebates and other payments. (If I've got these figures slightly wrong, please don't let it bother you. It doesn't affect the principle of what I'm saying.)

The UK politician Boris Johnson recently wrote an article in a UK newspaper (The Telegraph) which mentioned this claim again. Other UK media, including the BBC, have criticized his article, claiming that he is repeating the alleged falsehood that we will be £350m better off. This is an example of an article which reports on those claims:

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4892268/Th ... claim.html

But what Johnson actually said in his article was that the UK would "take back control" of £350m per week. Not that we would be "better off" by that amount, despite what newspaper headlines are saying. Even the newspaper in which his article appeared:

telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/exclusi ... 0m-eu-nhs/

So, strictly speaking, he is (arguably) not lying. But a BBC fact checking service which claims to simply check facts and not offer opinions (such things seem to be gaining in popularity ever since we allegedly entered the "post truth world") claims that he was in fact saying something that is factually incorrect.

Johnson went on to say:

"It would be a fine thing, as many of us have pointed out, if a lot of that money went on the NHS [National Health Service], provided we use that cash injection to modernise and make the most of new technology."

Again, despite what newspaper headlines are saying, this is not a factual claim. It is a claim as to what Mr Johnson's personal tastes are with regard to the spending of money. He claims that a particular way of spending money "would be a fine thing". Clearly an expression of taste.


Nevertheless, despite carefully avoiding saying anything that could conclusively be labelled as a lie, do we think that Mr Johnson has been misleading enough to be labelled a liar? If he states that "it would be a fine thing" for that £350m per week to be spent on the NHS in full knowledge of the fact that this would mean taking millions away from the places where that money is currently spent, can we justifiably claim that he is lying about his personal taste on this matter? Or does expressing something in this language of personal taste automatically get you off the hook? "There's no accounting for taste"?

Is it right for "Reality Check" or "Fact Check" services that are offered by various media outlets to label something as a false statement when it is actually (arguably) the expression of an opinion?

It's often said that "we are entitled to our own opinions but not to our own facts". But is there really such an objective dividing line between the two?

---

For reference, here is Johnson's original article:

telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/boris-j ... ed-brexit/

Unfortunately you have to subscribe to The Telegraph to see the whole thing.

-- Updated Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:48 pm to add the following --

Update:

The fact checkers do now seem to acknowledge Boris Johnson's verbal sleight-of-hand in using the expression "take back control":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41306354
User avatar
Ulrich
New Trial Member
Posts: 9
Joined: September 21st, 2017, 3:13 am

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Ulrich »

Hi,

thank you for this interesting example. I agree with you that the fact-checking services are at least problematic. Political statements are never simply factual statements. They always carry a certain meaning and are aimend at shaping the society in a certain way or according to a certain idea. Hannah Arendt argues that even the blatant lie is a truly political feature, simply beacause they liar wants to change the society so that it matches his falsehood. It is an interessting point, although I do not agree with her in that regard. The simple statement of facts on the other hand is apolitical, scince such a statement would not suggest how the society should be constructed. If, in the worst case, a the public discourse relies too much on fact checking it would run the risk of implementing an indirect form of censorship. However, this does not mean that a political person can simply jettonize any factual basis, as it is often the case in the growing right-wing spectrum. Such a disrespect for facts is just as concerning. An invariable dictum of truth, in my opinion, is therefore just as detrimental to the policitical discourse as the obvious promulgation of lies.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by LuckyR »

Steve3007 wrote:I am interested in examining the surprisingly difficult question of how we can decide if a politician or a journalist can objectively and fairly be deemed to have told the truth or a falsehood. I'd like to examine it by considering a very particular example which is currently in the UK media. I apologize in advance to non-British people who might find this example a bit parochial and local.


In the run-up to the vote on whether the UK should leave the EU (the "Brexit" vote) one of the claims made was that if we left the EU we would be better off by £350 million per week because this is the UK contribution to the EU coffers. It was alleged that this figure is misleading because about £80 million per week comes straight back in the form of rebates and other payments. (If I've got these figures slightly wrong, please don't let it bother you. It doesn't affect the principle of what I'm saying.)

The UK politician Boris Johnson recently wrote an article in a UK newspaper (The Telegraph) which mentioned this claim again. Other UK media, including the BBC, have criticized his article, claiming that he is repeating the alleged falsehood that we will be £350m better off. This is an example of an article which reports on those claims:

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4892268/Th ... claim.html

But what Johnson actually said in his article was that the UK would "take back control" of £350m per week. Not that we would be "better off" by that amount, despite what newspaper headlines are saying. Even the newspaper in which his article appeared:

telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/exclusi ... 0m-eu-nhs/

So, strictly speaking, he is (arguably) not lying. But a BBC fact checking service which claims to simply check facts and not offer opinions (such things seem to be gaining in popularity ever since we allegedly entered the "post truth world") claims that he was in fact saying something that is factually incorrect.

Johnson went on to say:

"It would be a fine thing, as many of us have pointed out, if a lot of that money went on the NHS [National Health Service], provided we use that cash injection to modernise and make the most of new technology."

Again, despite what newspaper headlines are saying, this is not a factual claim. It is a claim as to what Mr Johnson's personal tastes are with regard to the spending of money. He claims that a particular way of spending money "would be a fine thing". Clearly an expression of taste.


Nevertheless, despite carefully avoiding saying anything that could conclusively be labelled as a lie, do we think that Mr Johnson has been misleading enough to be labelled a liar? If he states that "it would be a fine thing" for that £350m per week to be spent on the NHS in full knowledge of the fact that this would mean taking millions away from the places where that money is currently spent, can we justifiably claim that he is lying about his personal taste on this matter? Or does expressing something in this language of personal taste automatically get you off the hook? "There's no accounting for taste"?

Is it right for "Reality Check" or "Fact Check" services that are offered by various media outlets to label something as a false statement when it is actually (arguably) the expression of an opinion?

It's often said that "we are entitled to our own opinions but not to our own facts". But is there really such an objective dividing line between the two?

---

For reference, here is Johnson's original article:

telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/boris-j ... ed-brexit/

Unfortunately you have to subscribe to The Telegraph to see the whole thing.

-- Updated Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:48 pm to add the following --

Update:

The fact checkers do now seem to acknowledge Boris Johnson's verbal sleight-of-hand in using the expression "take back control":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41306354
Using technically accurate information to mislead others is essentially what the Legal profession is based on. It is a well known and accepted part of Modern life. Caveat emptor.

The problem comes with the collision of celebrity and mass media, such that the misleading statements of a few, influence the many.
"As usual... it depends."
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Eduk »

He regularly lies. He has been caught many times lying. He has been sacked for lying. He is possibly a pathological liar although I don't claim to know him well enough to be sure of that.

He has been reported as saying this
"once we have settled our accounts, we will take back control of roughly £350m per week. It would be a fine thing, as many of us have pointed out, if a lot of that money went on the NHS".
That is a lie. Our net contribution is nothing like 350m a week. We will have to pay a leaving fee. There are entirely unknown financial ramifications such as lower tax revenue. Whatever is left (if anything) will then have to be apportioned out according to existing commitments. Even if everything left after all that was sent to the NHS and not further shared out (which it of course will be) the amount sent to the NHS could not reasonably be considered a lot of 350m.
Now there is a small chance that Boris literally knows nothing about any of the above, even though it is well documented and very basic, and he is living in some kind of denial land (after all many many people blind themselves to various things). And in that case he could well be sincere, so it's still basically a lie but a more complex one. A lie due to wanton disregard, something like that.
Unknown means unknown.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Steve3007 »

Eduk: Did you read the OP?

My central point was about precisely that quote of Johnson's that you repeated there. My central point was to analyse what constitutes a lie, and how people can avoid being called a liar, by using that kind of wording. I'd be interested if you could concentrate on the words "control" and "it would be a fine thing" and read the OP.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Eduk »

First off a lie is normally defined as saying something which is not true in order to deceive. Saying something true in order to deceive is often called a lie by omission. In my opinion both are lies.

Funnily enough I believe Boris is actually lying in both the ways described above. He is saying we will take back control of 350m, in reality the number will be nothing like that and this is a pretty well established fact. He, as you point out, also uses careful working like 'control'. This gives the pretence of lying by omission. It is an odd case where you actually lie but pretend to lie by omission.

Regarding the 'fine thing' quote. This looks like a more basic lie by omission. It's kind of a lie in all directions really. For example it wouldn't necessarily be a fine thing to give a lot of a pot of money to the NHS, other services exists, I don't know which are more deserving at this precise moment in time.
Unknown means unknown.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Steve3007 »

Yes, I basically agree. There's more than one way to lie. Technically, if he says something "would be a fine thing" then he can't be accused of lying because he's (technically) just expressing a personal taste. But we all know he's lying.

I suppose my point was also about the difficulties faced by media organisations who try to set up these "fact checking" services these days. The politicians can easily leave themselves enough wriggle-room so that fact checking is never quite black and white.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Eduk »

Who is fact checking the fact checkers?

You raise some good points. Many politicians dog whistle whereby they say nothing but different people can take different meanings (sometimes the meaning is actually quite clear). So in these cases sure they aren't answering the question, but then politically they often can't (so who's fault is it).

The best you can do is fact check yourself. This is often impractical. For example you would need to a be a climatologist to fact check climatological claims yourself.
The second best you can do is to not 'trust' anyone. You can do some research yourself. For example you can research the consensus of climatologists yourself. You can go slightly further than this. You can look at what a 'trusted' source should look like. For example do they have references, are studies published, are they cited and so on. You can consider factors of influence. You can consider basic logic, for example there are no fallacies in the statements. This goes on, you can learn what a reasonable statement looks like and what an unreasonable statement looks like.

Finally you should proportion belief to your evidence. For example in the last election I had no confidence on which party was better. I still have no confidence about which party is better. I'm forced to vote but I do some from a position of profound ignorance. The best I could do in the last election was that I didn't like May's strong and stable quote and redefinition of citizenship. I didn't like a lot of what Corbyn was saying either, but I found it less distasteful. Recently though he is catching up :)
Unknown means unknown.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Steve3007 »

In a White House press conference yesterday, a CNN reporter, Jim Acosta, was forcibly prevented from asking questions and had his White House press credentials revoked, with the White House Press Secretary, Sarah Sanders, citing the sexual assault of an intern as the reason:
Sarah Sanders wrote:President Trump believes in a free press and expects and welcomes tough questions of him and his Administration. We will, however, never tolerate a reporter placing his hands on a young woman just trying to do her job as a White House intern...
Here is a video showing exactly what happened in that exchange:
And here from a different angle:
On this one, the incident in question (the alleged assault) happens between 36 and 45 seconds in.


Is objective truth, even when captured like this from numerous angles, now completely gone?
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Steve3007 »

In particular, listen to the commentary of the Fox presenter from 1:25 to 1:34 and then watch again what she is referring to (36 to 45 seconds).
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Steve3007 »

As it happened:

36 seconds: The intern beings to rise.
39 seconds: She reaches Mr Acosta.
39 to 42 seconds: She is tapping him on the left shoulder. His left arm has been raised the whole time, pointing at Trump. His right hand holds the microphone.
43 seconds: She reaches around his extended left arm to try to take the microphone from his right hand as he continues to point. His left arm drops slightly and he says "excuse me ma'am".
45 seconds: She gives up trying to wrest the microphone from his right hand and sits down again.

Is this an assault? If so, by whom on whom? If it's an assault by Mr Acosta, does the punishment of having his press credentials suspended fit the alleged crime?
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Eduk »

Objective truth was never here to begin with. What humans will happily believe is frightening and, to my knowledge, always has been.
Basically the democrats are simply reaping what they sowed.
Unknown means unknown.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Steve3007 »

Eduk wrote:...Basically the democrats are simply reaping what they sowed.
As a result of the Kavanaugh thing? Yes, that's the thing that immediately springs to mind, isn't it. But in that case, as in so many such cases, it was one person's word against another. In this case the objective evidence of what happened during those 9 seconds could not be clearer. Yet still people see what they want to see. The commentary by the presenter on the Fox News clip is a fascinating example of this.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Eduk »

As a result of the Kavanaugh thing?
No I was thinking longer term than that. If a government doesn't prioritise the general welfare then I think it's fair to argue that welfare could be higher? I would argue that low welfare leads to poor outcomes over time?

On a tangent I suspect the Fox News presenter is merely doing their job and possibly doesn't believe a word they are saying. I'm sure they have many outgoing bills which need to be paid. Not that I'm saying the presenter is blameless and wonderful, I'm just saying that arguing about what is real and what is not real is to miss the point.
Unknown means unknown.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Truths > half-truths > misleading statements > lies

Post by Steve3007 »

Eduk wrote:No I was thinking longer term than that. If a government doesn't prioritise the general welfare then I think it's fair to argue that welfare could be higher? I would argue that low welfare leads to poor outcomes over time?
Ah, OK. Well that's a much larger political point about such things as equality/inequality in society.
On a tangent I suspect the Fox News presenter is merely doing their job and possibly doesn't believe a word they are saying. I'm sure they have many outgoing bills which need to be paid. Not that I'm saying the presenter is blameless and wonderful, I'm just saying that arguing about what is real and what is not real is to miss the point.
Yes that's a valid point. It's the equivalent of the political concept of realpolitik, applied to keeping one's job. It can be argued that the empirical truth or falsehood of our words are incidental, and that their primary purpose is to help us achieve out goals in life, whatever they may be. If our goal is to speak or discover the empirical truth, then the truth/falsehood of our words becomes important because it happens to coincide with our goals. If our goal is to make a living and feed our kids then their truth/falsehood might be coincidentally important, but it's not forced to be. Likewise if our goal is to attain and keep political power.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021