Conservatism in the U.S.

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3uGH7D4MLj
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Conservatism in the U.S.

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj » September 26th, 2017, 3:13 pm

To get this clear, I jotted down some tenets of conservatism in the U.S. as I see them. Here they are, curious about what y'all think.

1. Conservatives want to eliminate or privatize Social Security and other so-called entitlements.
2. Conservatives want less government regulation on business.
3. Conservatives disapprove of collective bargaining/union activity, it hinders business.
4. Conservatives oppose a minimum wage.
5. Conservatives are in favor of christian symbols in public places, prayer in schools.
6. Conservatives want to teach creationism alongside evolution in schools.
7. Conservatives deny that humans cause global warming.
8. Conservatives want to regulate access to voting because of voter fraud.
9. Conservatives believe people on public assistance are lazy and undeserving.
10. Conservatives favor states rights over federal decrees in education and civil rights.
11. Conservatives are against gun regulation.
12. Conservatives believe that if you cut taxes government revenues go up.
13. Conservatives believe in “American Exceptionalism,” international law does not apply to the U.S.
14. Conservatives are less willing to use diplomacy to solve world problems.
15. Conservatives are more hawkish, more likely to use nuclear arms.
16. Conservatives believe corporations should have the constitutional rights of individuals.
17. Conservatives oppose affirmative action in schools and hiring.
18. Conservatives oppose gay rights, are more likely to defer to Biblical morality.
19. Conservatives oppose single-payer health insurance.
20. Conservatives oppose changes on women’s issues -- equal pay, reproductive rights.
21. Conservatives oppose changing language to be respectful to minorities (political correctness).
22. Conservatives oppose taxing the rich to aid those less fortunate.
23. Conservatives revise history books so that slavery is not the cause of the civil war.
fair to say

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Atreyu
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Re: Conservatism in the U.S.

Post by Atreyu » September 26th, 2017, 11:53 pm

1. Conservatives want to eliminate or privatize Social Security and other so-called entitlements.

True, and this is a terrible idea.

2. Conservatives want less government regulation on business.

True. Less total regulation is not necessarily a good idea. But the regulation does need to be more intelligent, and should not entail "micromanaging" businesses. But when it comes to basic worker and environmental protections, we need more, not less, regulation.

3. Conservatives disapprove of collective bargaining/union activity, it hinders business.

True, and this is a lie. If all competitors in an industry are union, it hinders nothing, and, in fact, can actually benefit all parties involved - the workers, the owners, and the customers.

4. Conservatives oppose a minimum wage.

True, and this is another awful idea.

5. Conservatives are in favor of christian symbols in public places, prayer in schools.

True, and another terrible idea, this one even being blatantly unconstitutional.

6. Conservatives want to teach creationism alongside evolution in schools.

Generally true, and again, generally awful. Another unconstitutional proposition.

7. Conservatives deny that humans cause global warming.

They do deny this, but here they are mostly correct. Ultimately, humans are not the cause, and it would not be wise to base any legislation on the idea of trying to cool down the Earth.

8. Conservatives want to regulate access to voting because of voter fraud.

No, they want to make it harder for poor people, and particularly homeless people, to vote, because they normally vote Democrat.

9. Conservatives believe people on public assistance are lazy and undeserving.

They do, but are only somewhat correct here. People on public assistance are generally more lazy than those who work, but it's not wise not to help them. What the govt should do is guarantee all citizens the right to full time work at the minimum wage with basic health insurance, rather than give them a few crumbs in exchange for nothing.

10. Conservatives favor states rights over federal decrees in education and civil rights.

They do, but the issue here is murky. There needs to be a proper balance between federal and state control, and the balance is skewered too much either way depending on the particular issue.

11. Conservatives are against gun regulation.

True, and this is basically the correct position.

12. Conservatives believe that if you cut taxes government revenues go up.

They do, but this is usually not true. They can go up if taxes are very high, but that's not the case right now at all. Normally, cutting taxes means govt revenues go down.

13. Conservatives believe in “American Exceptionalism,” international law does not apply to the U.S.

Basically they do, and this is generally the correct position. One world govt can work well, but any eventual one world govt must be primarily "American" in flavor.

14. Conservatives are less willing to use diplomacy to solve world problems.

The common people may be like that. But those in power are not that stupid. Obviously, diplomacy is the best first option.

15. Conservatives are more hawkish, more likely to use nuclear arms.

Slightly true, perhaps. And obviously this is insane.

16. Conservatives believe corporations should have the constitutional rights of individuals.

Pretty much. And this is an awful idea.

17. Conservatives oppose affirmative action in schools and hiring.

They do, and they are correct. Affirmative action, i.e. discriminating against white males, should end immediately.

18. Conservatives oppose gay rights, are more likely to defer to Biblical morality.

They do. Appealing to Biblical authority is obviously absurd. However, many "gay rights" issues are ridiculous.

19. Conservatives oppose single-payer health insurance.

They do, and they are on the wrong side of history here. We will have single payer within a few decades at the latest. It's the only way to go.

20. Conservatives oppose changes on women’s issues -- equal pay, reproductive rights.

Basically true. Equal pay is an awful idea. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "reproductive rights", but certainly birth control should be a part of health insurance. However, women should not have the right to kill their babies just because they don't want them.

21. Conservatives oppose changing language to be respectful to minorities (political correctness).

True, and they are right on this. Political correctness, particularly concerning race and sex, needs to go ASAP.

22. Conservatives oppose taxing the rich to aid those less fortunate.

They do, and that is terrible. It is quite proper to redistribute wealth to some extent.

23. Conservatives revise history books so that slavery is not the cause of the civil war.

Probably right. But the truth is that slavery was not the cause of the civil war. It was only one of many issues, and hardly the most important one. The idea that the Civil War was basically "about slavery" is a lie. It was mostly about fiscal policy and states' rights. The North and South had different economic interests, and did not agree on the right of secession. Slavery was a relatively minor issue.

Steve3007
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Re: Conservatism in the U.S.

Post by Steve3007 » September 27th, 2017, 2:57 am

I'd say that 1, 2, 3, 12, 16, 19, 20 and 22 are all motivated in part or in whole by the faith in the power of free markets. This an economically liberal belief that is often (but by no means always) associated with social conservatives. A lot of the other points are descriptions of social conservatism.

I personally don't share this ideological faith in the free market idea. Just as I don't share the different articles of faith of some socialists. I'm wary of ideology and prefer pragmatism. I think the free-market concept is a fantastically useful tool for creating wealth and innovation. But it is a tool. Not a dogma. Even the most useful tool is not wholly applicable to every situation.

-- Updated Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:16 am to add the following --

I think an interesting example of a case in which economic liberalism doesn't necessarily go hand-in-hand with social conservatism is the current US president.

It seems to me that Trump is both an economic and a social liberal. But he has to pretend to be a social conservative in order to fool the immune system of his host (The Republican Party). So he has to show contrition for sexual indiscretions, mention God all the time, that kind of thing.

When he said "In this country we don't worship government. We worship God." I think if he was being true to his liberalism he might have said: "In this country we don't worship government. We worship The Market.". But he has to keep the social conservatives on board. (If he was being true to himself I guess he'd say "In this country we don't worship government. We [should] worship Me.")

One of the past poster-boys for economic and a social liberalism was the US journalist P.J. O'Rourke.
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

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3uGH7D4MLj
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Re: Conservatism in the U.S.

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj » September 27th, 2017, 10:45 am

Atreyu wrote:23. Conservatives revise history books so that slavery is not the cause of the civil war.

Probably right. But the truth is that slavery was not the cause of the civil war. It was only one of many issues, and hardly the most important one. The idea that the Civil War was basically "about slavery" is a lie. It was mostly about fiscal policy and states' rights. The North and South had different economic interests, and did not agree on the right of secession. Slavery was a relatively minor issue.
Did you ever look at the articles of secession? Pretty clearly all about slavery.

-- Updated September 27th, 2017, 9:49 am to add the following --
Steve3007 wrote:It seems to me that Trump is both an economic and a social liberal. But he has to pretend to be a social conservative in order to fool the immune system of his host (The Republican Party). So he has to show contrition for sexual indiscretions, mention God all the time, that kind of thing.
Nicely put.
fair to say

Steve3007
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Re: Conservatism in the U.S.

Post by Steve3007 » September 27th, 2017, 11:13 am

On the question of whether the American Civil War was about slavery, this might help:
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

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