Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

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Scribbler60
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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Scribbler60 » November 16th, 2017, 10:05 am

I haven't been through all the responses in detail yet, but the sense I get is that trump (I cannot even capitalize his name) struck a chord that continues to reverberate. We ignore that at our peril.

There does seem to be a stifling of opinion and thought under the auspices of political correctness (PC) which is proving to be a negative force.

No rational person would use racial epithets as a way of describing another human being. That's not about PC; that's simply being a thoughtful, rational human.

But some on the right and far-right (read Ann Coulter, Ben Shapiro and the like) do their best to incite hatred and even violence on campuses, and when they are called out for it, they say that the PC crowd is stifling free speech.

On the other hand, just recently in a university not far from where I live, a grad student was censured by university administration because she showed a clip of a publicly-available discussion on the use and mis-use of non-traditional gender pronouns. The context was a classroom where students were being asked to think through the thought processes of the debaters involved and provide reasons for their opinion. One school administrator actually compared the discussion to a speech by Hitler.

See WLU censures grad student for lesson that used TVO clip

You can see part of the clip here:
Remember, this is in a university, where freedom of expression and the thoughtful and enlightened discussion of subjects is supposed to be encouraged, not stifled. That is PC run amok.

(Dr Peterson, by the way, probably knows more about the rise of right-wing nationalism and the horrors it can lead to than most people on the planet. The professor that likened his opinion to a Hitler speech clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.)

Anyway, I suppose my point is that there is a real sense that PC has gone too far, it's stifled freedom of expression and tends to lead to a culture of victimization whereby anyone, of any background, can be insulted by pretty much anything and that, in turn, can lead to all sorts of problems.

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Dachshund » November 16th, 2017, 10:18 am

Greta, Steve,

I would be interested to know what your personal positions are on the question of Muslim immigration?

My own view is that that contemporary, advanced, Western democratic societies like,for example, Australia (Greta) the UK (Steve) and the US (Trump) should impose a complete blanket ban on any further Muslim immigration immediately and strip all persons who currently identify as Muslims in Australia, the UK and the US of their citizenship in these countries.

What do you think?

Regards,

John

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Dachshund » November 16th, 2017, 1:13 pm

Scribbler,

You are right. There is currently a serious problem with political correctness in the West. What is called "political correctness" is actually a mere surface symptom of a far deeper and more serious disease that is cultural relativism. By cultural relativism, I mean the moral/ethical, epistemological and metaphysical relativism that is becoming an increasingly more entrenched and dominant world-view in the late West. What it amounts to is that here is now, in the contemporary West a pervasive and growing skepticism about notions like objective moral values/norms (e.g., is there, we ask, such a thing as "right" and "wrong" or the "good" or the "evil"), even the concept of "truth" itself is increasingly regarded with suspicion. Is there such a thing as a "truth" we wonder ? Has the age-old search of philosophy for the (absolute) truth been merely a fool's errand all along? In short, The West is currently struggling with a deadly "crisis of Enlightenment rationality" that has infected it with a potentially self-destructive contagion of nihilism. (And) unless we wake up snap out of it we are doomed, because in a world where there is no longer a faith in ideas like objective value, objective truth or objective morality there is also no meaning or purpose -"anything goes" - and if we arrive at that state of affairs human life itself is rendered utterly absurd and unsustainable. Basically, we're ****.

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Greta » November 16th, 2017, 5:18 pm

Dachshund wrote:Greta, Steve,

I would be interested to know what your personal positions are on the question of Muslim immigration?

My own view is that that contemporary, advanced, Western democratic societies like,for example, Australia (Greta) the UK (Steve) and the US (Trump) should impose a complete blanket ban on any further Muslim immigration immediately and strip all persons who currently identify as Muslims in Australia, the UK and the US of their citizenship in these countries.

What do you think?
John, I think we need to be a lot more cautious than your proposal. I can think of no better way of radicalising young Muslims who are already here than your uncompromising approach. I also note that plenty of young disaffected western men convert to Islam so the problem won't go away.

I don't have an answer because I am not a politician or policy analyst. Let's just say my views lie somewhere between your and those who shut down migration debates with accusations of racism. Personally, I want all immigration dramatically slowed until our infrastructure catches up. As things stand, Sydneysiders are spending ever more of their lives either on the road, endlessly circling around looking for places to park, standing in queues, standing at traffic lights, with the record levels of immigration creating the highest property prices in the world - the list goes on; it's almost endless. Living standards have gone downhill so quickly, it's been surprising.

So I feel about as intensely about immigration levels in general as you feel about Muslims. I don't much care about Muslims. I worked with a becloaked Muslim woman for a year or two. She was a lot of fun and thoroughly pleasant.

The occasional murder by maniacs - Muslim or otherwise - is a flea bite compared with the grinding effects of crowding on people. Certainly in the US, the trauma of gun crime is exponentially worse than the county's terrorism issues. Think about it. A murder happens somewhere, it makes headlines and costs money, everyone is worried for a while and then they go back to normal. Crowding, noise and pollution, however, never relent but grind people down ever more, year by year.

Of course, more people can be accommodated comfortably in Sydney, but not with our existing infrastructure. So, sure, distorting immigration debates with accusations of racism is odious. Then again, so are false claims that people are unpatriotic or traitorous when they protest against irresponsible warmongering leaders. The Iraq invasion made a bad situation far worse - and now we are having this conversation about problematic migrants.

As I say, the PC is on all sides. It is outrageously hypocritical of the right to point the finger so vigorously at the left for all these years and never once concede that they do exactly the same.

-- Updated 16 Nov 2017, 16:47 to add the following --
Dachshund wrote:Scribbler,

You are right. There is currently a serious problem with political correctness in the West. What is called "political correctness" is actually a mere surface symptom of a far deeper and more serious disease that is cultural relativism. By cultural relativism, I mean the moral/ethical, epistemological and metaphysical relativism that is becoming an increasingly more entrenched and dominant world-view in the late West. What it amounts to is that here is now, in the contemporary West a pervasive and growing skepticism about notions like objective moral values/norms (e.g., is there, we ask, such a thing as "right" and "wrong" or the "good" or the "evil"), even the concept of "truth" itself is increasingly regarded with suspicion. Is there such a thing as a "truth" we wonder ? Has the age-old search of philosophy for the (absolute) truth been merely a fool's errand all along? In short, The West is currently struggling with a deadly "crisis of Enlightenment rationality" that has infected it with a potentially self-destructive contagion of nihilism. (And) unless we wake up snap out of it we are doomed, because in a world where there is no longer a faith in ideas like objective value, objective truth or objective morality there is also no meaning or purpose -"anything goes" - and if we arrive at that state of affairs human life itself is rendered utterly absurd and unsustainable. Basically, we're ****.
Thank you for your wonderful, almost archetypal, illustration of human negativity bias :)

Ah yes, the world has been about to end for how long? A few thousand years maybe? Yet that confounded doomsday clock keeps on ticking.

If you don't mind, I'm going to spin your post another way (and with paragraph breaks, ahem :)

There is currently a small problem with political correctness in the world today; there are always problems, of course. What is called "political correctness" is actually a mere surface symptom of a deeper dynamic where previously established norms are being questioned, as will happen from time to time.

By established norms, I mean the moral/ethical, epistemological and metaphysical programming that is becoming an increasingly more entrenched in all societies as humanity shifts focus ever further from individuals to collectives (especially corporations). What it amounts to is that here is now, in the world, a pervasive and growing skepticism about notions like objective moral values/norms (e.g., is there, we ask, such a thing as "right" and "wrong" or the "good" or the "evil"), even the concept of "truth" itself is increasingly regarded with suspicion. Is there such a thing as a "truth" we wonder ? Has the age-old search of philosophy for the (absolute) truth been merely a fool's errand all along? After all, individuals are increasingly looking like mere cells, resources, dumb terminals - chattel - for corporations.

In short, the world is currently struggling with growing pains as we shed morality based on superstitions of the past and consider what is appropriate for this fast changing world, and the superstitious have become increasingly nihilistic as they see their world being superseded by modern thinking. Over time, the problems will be addressed and solved, as always. In a world where there is no longer faith in unproven ideas like objective value, objective truth or objective morality then this creates the ability to explore, learn and grow.

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Scribbler60 » November 16th, 2017, 6:23 pm

Dachshund wrote:Scribbler,

You are right. There is currently a serious problem with political correctness in the West. What is called "political correctness" is actually a mere surface symptom of a far deeper and more serious disease that is cultural relativism.
I reject your assertion that cultural relativism - if it actually exists (I'm not convinced it does) - and PC are connected. You have shown no evidence of any connection other than your assertion, and "feelings" are not evidence.

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Dachshund » November 17th, 2017, 10:28 am

Greta,

With regard to doomsday clocks...

Have you ever wondered about that little "doomsday clock" - the one that is ticking just for you right now? Can you hear it? If you listen carefully for a few seconds I think you will find it is telling you that you are mistaken. I think you will find it is telling you not just that you can have faith in the notion of objective truth, but as a matter of fact, you DO, because you already know for certain that the inevitability of your own death is one very good example. And what about the truth of your destiny? Have you ever wondered about it? I mean the OBJECTIVE truth - (and it does exist) - about what WILL happen to "Greta" after her little doomsday clock stops ticking? What will it be ? Is it the nothingness of eternal death or.... ? Whatever it is , one thing is for sure and that is that it is your DUTY to know what that objective truth is. :)

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Steve3007 » November 17th, 2017, 4:54 pm

Greta, Steve,

I would be interested to know what your personal positions are on the question of Muslim immigration?

My own view is that that contemporary, advanced, Western democratic societies like,for example, Australia (Greta) the UK (Steve) and the US (Trump) should impose a complete blanket ban on any further Muslim immigration immediately and strip all persons who currently identify as Muslims in Australia, the UK and the US of their citizenship in these countries.

What do you think?

Regards,

John
Well, as you know, since Henry VIII England has been a Protestant country. Since the act of union, we're British now, of course. But the monarch is still the defender of the faith - the Protestant faith. No British monarch can be a Catholic.

I think there should be a blanket ban on Catholics entering my country and all subjects (we're subjects of the queen here, not citizens) who currently identify as Catholic should be stripped of their subjectivity. Catholic terrorism has taken a terrible toll in this country. We need to have a complete ban on Catholics coming to this country until we figure out what the hell is going on.

Muslims are fine though. We can keep them.
For evil views to flourish, it only requires good people to say nothing.

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Greta » November 17th, 2017, 5:41 pm

Dachshund wrote:Greta,

With regard to doomsday clocks...

Have you ever wondered about that little "doomsday clock" - the one that is ticking just for you right now? Can you hear it? If you listen carefully for a few seconds I think you will find it is telling you that you are mistaken. I think you will find it is telling you not just that you can have faith in the notion of objective truth, but as a matter of fact, you DO, because you already know for certain that the inevitability of your own death is one very good example.
Ah, such enthusiasm about "objective truth" tells me that you believe in God. Which deity do you believe in? I resume not the man in the sky. Perhaps "the ground of being" version or some other model?

I don't need to believe in death any more than I need believe in the keyboard I'm typing on. I know they exist, that they are true. Faith is not needed with the obvious.
Dachshund wrote:And what about the truth of your destiny? Have you ever wondered about it?
Yes, I have John, far too much since my sister died six years ago at exactly the age that I am now, hence my interesting in philosophical matters. After all, life is for living, not for thinking about death. Mostly, I'm getting the impression that what ultimately happens to this little entity called Greta seems largely insignificant, like a cell dying. The cell falls away but its containing entity (biosphere, humanity) continues on. There will never again be exactly the mix of qualities that makes each of us up, but probability tells me that there will always be people who are very similar to me, and serving the same functions.

I won't say I "believe" Jung's ideas it as such, but I do tend to look at humans via the lens of archetypes, not his particular categories, but I do think that humans come in types (like everything else based on fractal dynamics). Archetypes are more or less immortal, eg. in any grouping, from boulders to sea lions to CEOs, there will be a few dominant entities and multiple smaller ones.
Dachshund wrote:I mean the OBJECTIVE truth - (and it does exist) - about what WILL happen to "Greta" after her little doomsday clock stops ticking? What will it be ? Is it the nothingness of eternal death or.... ? Whatever it is , one thing is for sure and that is that it is your DUTY to know what that objective truth is. :)
First I might to find myself in a void with no sense of a body or anything but my sense of being. Then I will probably see a warm, welcoming light and I will be drawn to it (rather more alluring than an endless scary void). After that, maybe I might stop being, or maybe there will be other dimensions in which to be, or perhaps our perception of time is askew, with life and death not what we assume? I had a very interesting peak experience in 2012 that seemed related to life and death. Damn cool, most encouraging and growth-promoting - basically an echo of the experiences described by many claiming they have been touched by God.

My view? Maybe. It could also have been a dopamine runaway effect. Kant famously introduced the concept of noumena - that which actually exists independently of our senses and perceptions. He is right. There is no way I can say for sure that what I felt was happening was a true impression.

So, "PC" - basically hominids tussling over social rules of engagement - is not even remotely objective. Social struggles are not the stuff of reality but its "connective tissue".

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Steve3007 » November 17th, 2017, 7:10 pm

John Dachshund:
strip all persons who currently identify as Muslims in Australia, the UK and the US of their citizenship in these countries.
One problem that occurs to me with this: Once they've been stripped of their citizenship/subjectship, how could they be clearly identified as non-citzens/subjects? Perhaps some kind of armband with a symbol of their religion written on it?
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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Dachshund » November 17th, 2017, 9:05 pm

Greta,
Greta,
Greta,


Greta,




Greta
I think that William Craig's "Kalam Cosmological Argument" provides a very compelling case for the existence of a timeless, spaceless, immaterial/non-physical, uncaused tremendously powerful, personal being ("God") who created the universe/multiverse.

Regards

John

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Dachshund » November 17th, 2017, 9:46 pm

Steve,

That's a damn good suggestion, old boy- the armband, I mean, with a symbol of their religion displayed on it. As for the symbol itself, a Swaztika would be perfect, I think, given the contents of the Koran, but I guess Muslims aren't actually Nazis - (at least not in the strict sense) - are they (?) Therefore, could I suggest instead something like a large silver sword or sabre dripping with bright, red blood ? I'm sure the Prophet ("peace be upon him") would find that very satisfactory!

Regards,

John

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Dachshund » November 17th, 2017, 10:12 pm

Greta,

PS:

Sorry to hear that your sister passed.

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Greta » November 17th, 2017, 11:56 pm

Dachshund wrote:Greta [x4] I think that William Craig's ...
Yes, I know of William Craig. Generally I prefer John Hagelin's new age unproven suppositions and general woo to those of WC.

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Steve3007 » November 18th, 2017, 3:29 am

John Dachshund:
That's a damn good suggestion, old boy- the armband, I mean, with a symbol of their religion displayed on it...
Well, when the Nazis did to the Jews what you're suggesting doing to Muslims the armbands that they forced them to wear had a star of David on them. So, for consistency with the policy you're suggesting we emulate, I guess a crescent moon and star might be appropriate?

Of course, it won't be allowed by the liberals. You're just not allowed to round up an entire ethnic or religious group and collectively blame society's ills on them any more. It's political correctness gone mad!

---

OK, John, it's been fun, but, sarcasm and satire aside, I think I'll stop talking to you there. To start off with you seemed like the normal paranoid religious right-winger who was worth talking to because you could at least frame an argument. But it rapidly become clear that you're either joking or are a bit of a monster. If the former, the joke is now over. If the latter ... bye!

-- Updated Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:14 am to add the following --

P.S. A bit more sarcasm before I go:

Trump recently announced a new policy (overturning an Obama-instigated ban) to allow American hunters to kill big game in Zambia and Zimbabwe and take the corpses home with them, to allow his family and friends to continue with this fun activity. An argument about how it would protect those endangered species was created as cover. I've just heard on the news that he's now bowed to liberal, bleeding heart, elephant hugging opinion and reversed his position within 48 hours! Political correctness gone mad!
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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Dachshund » November 18th, 2017, 11:20 am

Steve,

(1) Oscar Wilde was right, "Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit", and you seem to possess a penchant for it .Though I am no better, I guess, in rising to the bait and replying in kind.

(2) I am a great lover of animals, so I am shocked and appalled at what what you say - (if it is true) - about Trump having intended to implement a policy allowing American hunters kill big game in Africa. This, however, is an example of an attempt to legitimise mindless barbarism of the kind that most decent human beings - and not just PC "liberal, bleeding hearts" - would unequivocally condemn in this day and age.

(3) I am not a "religious right-winger", (though I AM probably a bit paranoid) :)

(4) If you are still interested, I am more than happy to explain to you why I think the contemporary West should impose a blanket ban on all further Muslim immigration into its societies as a matter of urgency. I am also willing to explain to you why the politically correct establishment in the West who oppose such a measure are foolishly endangering the cherished, life affirming core values of their own culture. It will take some time, but I am sure I can ultimately convince you that I am right about this stuff.

Regards,

John

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