Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

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Steve3007
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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Steve3007 » November 18th, 2017, 7:46 pm

(1) Oscar Wilde was right, "Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit", and you seem to possess a penchant for it .Though I am no better, I guess, in rising to the bait and replying in kind.
I try not to use it too much. But sometimes, when faced with the kind of things that you've said here which are so extreme that it's genuinely difficult to tell if you're serious, it seems the only possible approach.
(2) I am a great lover of animals, so I am shocked and appalled at what what you say - (if it is true) - about Trump having intended to implement a policy allowing American hunters kill big game in Africa. This, however, is an example of an attempt to legitimise mindless barbarism of the kind that most decent human beings - and not just PC "liberal, bleeding hearts" - would unequivocally condemn in this day and age.
If you keep up with any kind of news at all, I'm surprised that you don't appear to have even heard about it. Especially as you say that Trump is the best president the US has ever had. How do you know that if you don't keep up with what he's actually doing?

But before we simply condemn Trump on this issue:

First point to consider: It is perfectly logical that a properly managed hunting regime could indeed help to protect a species. That's why, as I said, this is the story that is used as cover for dropping the ban on importing dead big game hunting trophies. It has a kernel of truth to it.

Second point to consider: The ban which Trump was seeking to overturn was a ban on a perfectly legal activity. Legally bringing dead big game hunting trophies back to the USA which had been legally hunted and shot in their countries of origin.
(4) If you are still interested, I am more than happy to explain to you why I think the contemporary West should impose a blanket ban on all further Muslim immigration into its societies as a matter of urgency. I am also willing to explain to you why the politically correct establishment in the West who oppose such a measure are foolishly endangering the cherished, life affirming core values of their own culture. It will take some time, but I am sure I can ultimately convince you that I am right about this stuff.
And, don't forget, you're also proposing to strip the citizenship from every citizen in your country who identifies as Muslim. Purely because that is their self-identity. With absolutely no other knowledge of that person as an individual.

Remember to present your justification for that. And try researching other moments in history when the same thing has been done to the individual members, within a society, of various other groups.

-- Updated Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:10 am to add the following --

Like this situation, when the armbands that you've enthusiastically embraced were used:

Image

In addition to armbands, stars were often sewn into the clothes, as with this pair of little violent extremists:

Image

bl.uk/learning/histcitizen/voices/info/ ... wstar.html

Would you mark Muslim-owned shops and other businesses with similar devices?

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Greta
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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Greta » November 18th, 2017, 8:20 pm

Dachshund wrote:... shocked and appalled at what what you say - (if it is true) - about Trump having intended to implement a policy allowing American hunters kill big game in Africa. This, however, is an example of an attempt to legitimise mindless barbarism of the kind that most decent human beings - and not just PC "liberal, bleeding hearts" - would unequivocally condemn in this day and age.
I am crazy about other species and the reports are true.

From the Safari Club website:
At the African Wildlife Consultative Forum (AWCF) co-hosted by Tanzania and Safari Club International Foundation, the FWS announced that it had made positive enhancement findings for elephants legally hunted in Zimbabwe and Zambia between 2016-2018. Individuals who have hunted or wish to hunt elephants during that period will need to apply for and obtain import permits from the FWS in order to bring their elephants home.

“These positive findings for Zimbabwe and Zambia demonstrate that the Fish and Wildlife Service recognizes that hunting is beneficial to wildlife and that these range countries know how to manage their elephant populations,” said SCI President Paul Babaz. “We appreciate the efforts of the Service and the U.S. Department of the Interior to remove barriers to sustainable use conservation for African wildlife.”
safariclub.org/detail/news/2017/11/14/u ... e-imported

Apparently he has temporarily halted policy due to a backlash.

Trump has a long history of disregarding nature, always fighting with environmental protection agencies, which is why he focused on dismantling his old enemies once he gained control of them with the Presidency. As far as I can tell, well everything he has ever done in business or government has been about turning whatever environments - be it heritage, natural or bland - into human habitations, businesses and activities - all without the slightest regard for the future (and certainly no regard for displaced species).

Trouble is, many would call you a liberal bleeding heart after your comments - it's all relative. A psychopath is a liberal bleeding in the opinion of those more psychopathic. A social justice warrior is an immoral monster to a more precious SJW.

We all like to think that we are the ones who achieve the "sweet spot" between ruthlessness and mercy, but there is always something to think you either a bleeding heart or monster :)

Steve3007
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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Steve3007 » November 18th, 2017, 9:11 pm

I presume the recent military coup in Zimbabwe has made it particularly difficult to argue in favour of dropping the Obama administration's ban. I can certainly see how, in theory, managed hunting can help to protect a species population as a whole, in the same way that farming means that the chicken and cow species won't be dying out any time soon. But of course that relies on the non-corrupt rule of law being in place in the country where the hunting happens. It also fails to take into account the general message it sends to the local poverty and corruption stricken population: "Rich business men and politicians from other countries are allowed to shoot the elephants and take them home to hang over the mantelpiece because they pay a lot of money for the privilege. If you do it, without paying that money, it's poaching.". So it will encourage more poaching.

Note: The men in military uniform who took over a television station in Zimbabwe (military coup style) insisted that it wasn't actually a military coup. But if it looks like a duck...

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Greta » November 18th, 2017, 10:38 pm

A pretty solid analysis. Still, from what my contact says, it's likely that the coup will significantly improve the lives of most Zimbabweans - just not those who benefitted by helping him to keep power.

Steve3007
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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Steve3007 » November 19th, 2017, 8:00 am

Greta (to John):
Trouble is, many would call you a liberal bleeding heart after your comments - it's all relative. A psychopath is a liberal bleeding in the opinion of those more psychopathic. A social justice warrior is an immoral monster to a more precious SJW.

We all like to think that we are the ones who achieve the "sweet spot" between ruthlessness and mercy, but there is always something[someone?] to think you either a bleeding heart or monster :)
Very good point.

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Greta
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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Greta » November 19th, 2017, 4:34 pm

Steve3007 wrote:Greta (to John):
Trouble is, many would call you a liberal bleeding heart after your comments - it's all relative. A psychopath is a liberal bleeding heart in the opinion of those more psychopathic. A social justice warrior is an immoral monster to a more precious SJW.

We all like to think that we are the ones who achieve the "sweet spot" between ruthlessness and mercy, but there is always something[someone?] to think you either a bleeding heart or monster :)
Very good point.
Nothing brings this into sharper relief than diet - from badness to goodness:

Three meat meals per day, not selective
Three meat meals per day, selective regarding ethics (eg. free range or white meats)
Fewer meat meals per day, not selective
Fewer meat meals per day, selective
Weekly/sporadic, not selective
Weekly/sporadic, selective (that's mine)
Vegetarian
Vegan
Fruitarian.

Fruitarian is my favourite, as they are even disappointed with vegans who kill poor defenceless root vegetables :) Seemingly too gentle or genteel for this savage world.

Steve3007
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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Steve3007 » November 19th, 2017, 5:45 pm

I wonder if the spectrum continues beyond the Fruitarian? Infra-Fruitarian? Or Ultra-Fruitarian? I guess they would eat only salt.

At the other end of the scale is the people who eat three meat meals per day and are affronted by other people who don't do the same. I've known people like that. I once worked with one. We went out for lunch once and I had a veggie burger, just because I fancied a veggie burger. No biggie. But it prompted him to give me a big lecture on how vegetarians are idiots and it's natural to eat meat, and therefore wrong not to.

Queue the relevant Simpsons clip:
The Simpsons. A clip for every occasion.

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Dachshund » November 22nd, 2017, 9:51 am

Steve,

I was interested to hear that you were a former teacher. Me too. I originally qualified as a pharmacist, then, while I was married and living in the UK ( I am an Australian national like Greta) I took a PGCE and taught GCSE science and "A" Chemistry in a number of 11-18 comprehensives in Hertfordshire. Alas !- like you, I soon found I lacked the temperament for the work, and teaching for me was always an extraordinary stressful occupation. I did ,however, learn how to formulate a decent, standard lesson plan and manage to acquire some skills in the science-art of pedagogy. So for the purposes of this debate on the banning of Muslim immigration, I am now going to put myself back in front of the chalk board. I am going to imagine that you are a very bright, though difficult/quarrelsome ( and rather cheeky) 6th form student in an "A"-level religious studies class where I am the teacher.

I have told the class that we will be looking, over the next 12 lessons, in detail at the Islamic faith in Britain, and because the question of Muslim immigration into Britain is currently such a topical and controversial issue, I have decided to set an end of term assignment for the class which will be to write a 3000 word essay detailing and justifying their their personal stance on the question: "Should all Muslim immigration into the UK be banned"? I will be tailoring the content of my lessons to equip my students with the background knowledge that they will need to write this assignment.

Today, I am giving my first lesson, the aim of which is to define some key terms of reference. Because, naturally, I am not going to actually transcribe the contents of a real lesson, here, on this forum, Steve, I will just give you a recap of the main points of each lesson and ask if you have any queries before moving on to the next

Lesson number (1):

Me (the teacher): "Well student's, today we have defined some key terms of reference for our study of the Islamic religion in Britain. Here they are again":

(1) "Islam". Islam is defined as the religion that teaches that there is only one god (Allah) and that Mohammed is Allah's prophet.

(2) "Muslim". A Muslim is defined as a person whose religion is Islam: i.e. a follower of Islam, who embraces the the Islamic doctrine that is contained in the sacred scriptures of: (A) the Koran which contains the word of god (Allah) recorded verbatim in Arabic as it was recited to Mohammed by the archangel Gabriel; (B) the Hadith which is a supplement to the Koran containing a record of the deeds, teachings and sayings of the prophet Mohammed and (c) the Sira (the official Islamic doctrine detailing the biography of Mohammed). A Muslim is also a person who conscientiously observes the articles of Sharia Law. Sharia law is a set of religious principles that refers to the revealed law of god and governs many aspects of a Muslim's public and private life, including religious rituals, family life, business, crimes and warfare.

(3) "Extreme". We defined "extreme" as being very far from the opinions of most people: not moderate.

(4) "Extremist". "Extremist" was defined as the advocacy of extreme measures or views.

(5) "Moderate". We agreed that what is "moderate" is that which professes or is characterized by political, social and religious beliefs that are not extreme.

(6) "Moderate behaviour". Having defined the term "moderate, we decided that it was critically important to try and define "moderate behaviour". We defined moderate behaviour as "normal behaviour" and eventually agreed that "normal behaviour" in Britain was behaviour that did not violate the basic principles of the United Nations' Declaration of Human Rights.


Are there any final questions before the end of class? Steve?

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Steve3007 » November 22nd, 2017, 5:15 pm

Dachshund:
I was interested to hear that you were a former teacher. Me too. I originally qualified as a pharmacist, then, while I was married and living in the UK ( I am an Australian national like Greta) I took a PGCE and taught GCSE science and "A" Chemistry in a number of 11-18 comprehensives in Hertfordshire.
Cool. I taught secondary school physics, general science and maths.
I am now going to put myself back in front of the chalk board. I am going to imagine that you are a very bright, though difficult/quarrelsome ( and rather cheeky) 6th form student in an "A"-level religious studies class where I am the teacher.
Okey dokey sir. Please don't take offence if I throw some metaphorical paper aeroplanes at you while your back it turned.

Re: your points 1 to 6. Obviously I can see where you're going with this.

I take issue with point 2. If somebody self-identifies as a Muslim, or a Catholic, or any other belief system I would tend to let them make up their own mind as to how that works for them. Obviously if they said they were a Catholic and then said they didn't believe in God I'd be a bit confused. But if they said they were a Catholic but acknowledged the contradictions in their holy text and didn't really take the whole prohibition on contraception and transubstantiation thing seriously, I'd probably think "yeah ok, fair play." Likewise, if they said they were a Muslim and didn't believe in God, I would raise a similarly quizzical eyebrow, as I did for the atheistic Catholic. But if they said they were a Muslim but acknowledged the contradictions in their holy text and weren't that fussed about Sharia, I'd think "fair enough."

I was reading an interview with Cat Stevens a while ago, a.k.a Yusuf Islam. He reckons that Muslims are told to respect the laws of the country in which they find themselves. So that seems to contradict the whole Sharia thing. Such are the strange inconsistencies of religions I guess. Each believer must presumably take from the religion what's important to them.


So, do I get detention for talking back?

-- Updated Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:34 pm to add the following --

One more question: Are there any Muslims in this classroom of ours? If so, do they have to wear armbands?

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Greta » November 22nd, 2017, 5:51 pm

Steve3007 wrote:I wonder if the spectrum continues beyond the Fruitarian? Infra-Fruitarian? Or Ultra-Fruitarian? I guess they would eat only salt.

At the other end of the scale is the people who eat three meat meals per day and are affronted by other people who don't do the same. I've known people like that. I once worked with one. We went out for lunch once and I had a veggie burger, just because I fancied a veggie burger. No biggie. But it prompted him to give me a big lecture on how vegetarians are idiots and it's natural to eat meat, and therefore wrong not to.
:lol: Pardon the slow answer, I've been talking too much here and, as always, lost track of the converstaions. Focus Greta ... focus ...

Self-flagellation done, I seriously believe that the humanity's successors (inevitably much more cyborg than we are now) will be autotrophic. Either that or humanity goes away and the story of the Earth disappears.

Yes, I've known people like your workmate. They are simply kidults who cannot comprehend the notion of "degree". They are of the type who will argue that, since the climate has always changed, that there can't be any issues today. Nuance is alien to them, always mindlessly influenced by the halo effect and its reverse. Those who do not lead examined lives can be useful in a practical sense, but their opinions will generally be derivative, shallow and pointless - like that of your workmate.

Like that of Trump and his supporters.

It saddens me to see how the egalitarianism of the internet has allowed the noisy and uninformed to gain a level of influence that had always previously been suppressed when widely distributed media was subject to editorial control. It's saddening because I believe in freedom - but it doesn't work any more, not with such populations. The level of freedom on the internet is unsustainable, with post fact gaming eroding the west from the inside.

In other words, there will inevitably increasingly be controls over internet content at some stage, and those controls will inevitably not be objectively administered, quite possibly by China. I look at what people want, and they are tired of checks and balances and discussions. They want a "strongman" to make quick, strong decisions and screw the system.

In other words, many people living under democracy now want a dictator, a tyrant. It calls to mind Dan Gilbert's well-known TED talk about happiness, where he showed how people tend to be happier with outcomes when they have reduced choices (ie. they lose the FOMO). My father was a conservative, a member of the Liberal Part, and I suspected that he did not believe in democracy - just an endless Liberal Party in governance. So I asked if he believed that the Labor Party should ever spend time in power, and he said no.

I suppose that, the wider the divisions in society, the more a tyrant is required to pull a country together. Look at how Iraq immediately fell into civil war after the insane Bush invasion of Iraq. Saddam was brutal, but that was the only way he could keep the Sunnis, Shias and Kurds from perpetual warfare.

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Dachshund » November 24th, 2017, 4:46 pm

Well Steve,

I'm glad you've asked that question because it is very important for us to clearly specify whom we have decided to designate as "Muslims" given, as you suggest, the term "Muslim" has a considerable potential to be loosely applied , especially in the contemporary Western societies like Britain today. Therefore , let me re-emphasise that for the purposes of our study of the Islamic faith this term we will be defining a Muslim as a person who is a PRACTICING Muslim; in other words to individuals who identify as Muslims, who believe in the Koran and genuinely strive live their day-to-day lives according to Islamic principles. Our definition of the term "Muslim" does NOT, therefore, include what some people refer to as nominal or "cultural" Muslims, nor to non-practicing Muslims, reformers or persons who who choose to identify as Muslims out of concern for their own safety, (of whom there are plenty), given Islam's highly controversial view on apostasy.

Finally as I have explained, we have also necessarily made the logical assumption that most people who follow a specific ideology, regardless of what it is, have at least a basic understanding of its official doctrines and goals. Thus, let me re-emphasise for you all we will be assuming that a PRACTICNG Muslim has at least a basic understanding of Islam's view on the three core aspects of the religion's doctrine, namely: the Koran, the Sunnah and the Sharia, and that despite being familiar with the way that these three major components of the Islamic religion do - as I will explain - explicitly and incontrovertibly advocate violence and absolutely reject the notion of basic human rights as per the United Nations' declaration , still choose to identify as (practising) Muslims.

In our lessons next week we will begin looking at these three major elements of Islamic doctrine: the Koran, Sharia law and the life of the prophet Muhammed as it is described in the Sunnah in more detail, beginning with the Koran.

So, are there any further questions, regarding the basic definition of the term "Muslim" that we will be using this term? Steve?

Well, the old clock on the wall says the bell is just about to ring for the end of lesson, so for homework I would like you all to google verse 9:29 of the Koran and transcribe it into your exercise books. Right, there's the bell now, so off you go, and Steve, for goodness sake, please tuck in your shirt and get rid of that chewing gum, lad !

-- Updated November 24th, 2017, 5:01 pm to add the following --

Well Steve,

I'm glad you've asked that question because it is very important for us to clearly specify whom we have decided to designate as "Muslims" given, as you suggest, the term "Muslim" has a considerable potential to be loosely applied , especially in the contemporary Western societies like Britain today. Therefore , let me re-emphasise that for the purposes of our study of the Islamic faith this term we will be defining a Muslim as a person who is a PRACTICING Muslim; in other words to individuals who identify as Muslims, who believe in the Koran and genuinely strive live their day-to-day lives according to Islamic principles. Our definition of the term "Muslim" does NOT, therefore, include what some people refer to as nominal or "cultural" Muslims, nor to non-practicing Muslims, reformers or persons who who choose to identify as Muslims out of concern for their own safety, (of whom there are plenty), given Islam's highly controversial view on apostasy.

Finally as I have explained, we have also necessarily made the logical assumption that most people who follow a specific ideology, regardless of what it is, have at least a basic understanding of its official doctrines and goals. Thus, let me re-emphasise for you all we will be assuming that a PRACTICNG Muslim has at least a basic understanding of Islam's view on the three core aspects of the religion's doctrine, namely: the Koran, the Sunnah and the Sharia, and that despite being familiar with the way that these three major components of the Islamic religion do - as I will explain - explicitly and incontrovertibly advocate violence and absolutely reject the notion of basic human rights as per the United Nations' declaration , still choose to identify as (practising) Muslims.

In our lessons next week we will begin looking at these three major elements of Islamic doctrine: the Koran, Sharia law and the life of the prophet Muhammed as it is described in the Sunnah in more detail, beginning with the Koran.

So, are there any further questions, regarding the basic definition of the term "Muslim" that we will be using this term? Steve?

Well, the old clock on the wall says the bell is just about to ring for the end of lesson, so for homework I would like you all to google verse 9:29 of the Koran and transcribe it into your exercise books. Right, there's the bell now, so off you go, and Steve, for goodness sake, please tuck in your shirt and get rid of that chewing gum, lad !

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Greta » November 24th, 2017, 5:22 pm

Very true about PC lucky - there are few more foolish notions.

I am yet to find a single right winger who acknowledges that their own political correctness when it comes to God, guns and the military.

It is infuriating that people now can lie and refuse to admit any flaws and mistakes now routinely get away with it. The irony is that, in the workplace, these games are much harder to play because the stakes are too high for BS to replace fact (aside the "no bad news" problem in management reporting). Yet, oddly, the stakes of society at large are treated as lesser than those of a medium sized business, where lies can be ignored or accepted, and the long term consequences give the impression of impunity.

Hmm, perhaps not so odd on reflection. After all, today institutions and companies matter but people do not, a shift(?) in political priorities made abundantly clear by all governments' policy positions and the increasingly skewed tax contributions that somehow miraculously leave billionaires and multinationals paying a tiny fraction of their wealth as compared with regular workers. You can see this even with the old, immoral churches retaining their tax exempt status, even when their charitable works are almost nil - the important thing is just to be a large enough group to afford experts to leverage the wealth.

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Scribbler60 » November 24th, 2017, 5:31 pm

Greta wrote:It saddens me to see how the egalitarianism of the internet has allowed the noisy and uninformed to gain a level of influence that had always previously been suppressed when widely distributed media was subject to editorial control.
Oh, but dear Greta, haven't you heard? The mainstream media is bought and paid for by special interests, the Deep State, the Clintons, etc etc... Only info coming from places like Fox, InfoWars, Gateway Pundit, Drudge, Project Veritas and the like is truly accurate! *sarcasm alert*

What I find disheartening about much of the discussion regarding media is the fact that those who criticize - and often, rightly so - media outlets like CNN, MSNBC, New York Times, Washington Post and others completely turn off their critical thinking skills when they read dreck from, say, Fox or Drudge.

And even when Fox actually gets it right sometimes and calls out, for instance, trump on his lies, they'll ignore that too.

You can't make this up:

Shepard Smith refuses to join Fox News colleagues in attacking Hillary Clinton over Uranium One

followed shortly by...

Fox News viewers demand reporter Shepard Smith be fired for debunking 'Clinton uranium scandal'

See that? When someone from Fox told the truth, Fox viewers demand he be fired.

I know that this might seem a bit off-topic from the original post about "political correctness" but it points to a deeper, more insidious infection: the denial of truth.

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Greta » November 24th, 2017, 5:42 pm

I agree, Scribbler. I think you have highlighted a lack of caffeine in my post (now currently being corrected).

When awake enough, I largely blame Murdoch for exploiting a loophole, ie. news outlets operate by an honour code, with no real sanctions against the dishonourable who would exploit it for selfish purposes. My mother briefly worked as a journalist and at the time New Ltd routinely filled space by having journalists simply concoct small pieces of fiction. Murdoch lowered the bar and then lowered it again, to the point where all of his outlets are now little more than right wing propaganda mouthpieces with added entertainment.

Worse, because there are so many of those outlets (plus syndication) his pundits have created the impression that outlets that lie far less often and egregiously than the Murdoch stable (ie. occasionally try to be objective) are the ones that are biased. Fox and co present their own semi-theistic, hyper-conservative, fossil fuel funded misrepresentations as the centre. Ha! The current messes today were always going to happen, one way or another - either via corruption, tragedies of the commons and/or the Dunning Kruger effect.

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Re: Is Trump right about "political correctness" ?

Post by Jklint » November 25th, 2017, 1:18 am

If Trump is right about anything, it's pure accident and as we know accidents happen to whomever, whenever; so even when he's right, it's probably not for the right reasons.

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