Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

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Burning ghost
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Burning ghost » December 14th, 2017, 8:08 am

Belindi -

That's a stretch considering the OP was talking about a survey done in the US about ideas voiced by white supremacist groups in the US. So no, the connection is, at best, a mere tattered thread.

I would argue that the historically the US is still stuck in the past. The UK has moved on. The vast amount of African slaves died in Brasil at the hands of ex-cons shipped form Portugal.

The OP simply seems to point to some people getting pissed at being made to feel guilty for being white. People don't ask to be born here or there, with these or those parents, speaking this or that language, under this or that form of rule, and they don't ask to be born into a rich or poor community. The greater share falls to some more than others, and the balancing factor is not simply down to race, its down to societal opportunities within which race place some part in differing degrees (more so in some areas in the US than others, and more so in some countries more than others.) Disparity of wealth distribution is the underlying factor, regardless of race or culture, which determines general non-violent societies. Note the number of homocides in the US compared to the UK? Not the differences between the US and other countries in Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

US 4.88

Most Western European countries around 1.0-2.0. Note that the US is above Rwanda, Cuba, Chile and Turkey. In western Europe the highest I can see is Belgium at 1.95

Point being there is a correlation between social inequality (economic distribution) and violent death (murder). In such environments people turn on each other and look for someone to blame (examples of this are strewn across human history.) I reckon a lot of this is being magnified now due to mass media and people being exposed to news as a form of consumerism. It's quick, flash and sensationalized (compare US news stations to UK for a perfect example of the cultural differences.)
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Steve3007
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » December 14th, 2017, 8:23 am

It's interesting to see the number of places with a literally zero murder rate. But, then, statistics can be misleading. For example, did you know that the Vatican City has two Popes per square mile?
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

Burning ghost
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Burning ghost » December 14th, 2017, 8:50 am

Steve3007 wrote:
December 14th, 2017, 8:23 am
It's interesting to see the number of places with a literally zero murder rate. But, then, statistics can be misleading. For example, did you know that the Vatican City has two Popes per square mile?
That is the kind of skewed comment I would expect from D not yourself. The stats for some countries listed are highly contentious (ie. Indonesia), but I take the statistics from western democracies to be more transparent.

On of the most powerful correlations used in social science is that of wealth inequality and male homicides committed. I am merely making the assumption that the large amount of homicides in the US is likely due to economic inequality. Such a situation causes people to side with more radical views because they feel they're being hard done by. The over all wealth of the country has nothing to do with this, it is simply the disparity that causes social unease and violence.

Do you think the stats for western countries has been skewed or misrepresented? I don't, and neither do I think they are taking into account what I am saying here about male homicides - I can extrapolate that 50% of the deaths are due to male aggression because I doubt we're find a country in the west where the female population are vastly more prone than males when it comes to committing murder.

Radicalism is "normal" where the society is economically skewed (simple fact.) The more interesting question in regard to the post, and what I keep bringing up, is the possible catalytic effect of media distribution and sensationalized news. A much harder thing to measure (I would say impossible given the complexity of the situation.)
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Steve3007
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » December 14th, 2017, 8:58 am

That is the kind of skewed comment I would expect from D not yourself.
You're right. I withdraw my previous remark. I've let you down, and I've let the forum down and, most of all, I've let myself down. Especially since I actually got it wrong and there are closer to 6 Popes per square mile.
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

Burning ghost
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Burning ghost » December 14th, 2017, 9:03 am

Hahaha! XD
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Steve3007
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » December 14th, 2017, 9:05 am

...Radicalism is "normal" where the society is economically skewed (simple fact.) The more interesting question in regard to the post, and what I keep bringing up, is the possible catalytic effect of media distribution and sensationalized news. A much harder thing to measure (I would say impossible given the complexity of the situation.)
Yes, it's hard to measure this. If we were going to analyse this homicide rate properly I suppose we'd also have to break it down into the various reasons why the various homicides take place. The one's that grab the biggest global headlines are the ones like the guy in the hotel in Vegas - the alienated gun enthusiasts who one day decide to kill a large random collection of strangers. But I suspect most of the statistics are composed of more "normal" criminal activities.
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

Burning ghost
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Burning ghost » December 14th, 2017, 9:22 am

The Gini Index. It shows a solid correlation between income disparity and male homicides. You can take this coefficient and it will work across populations of cities right up to a national, or a continental, scale. The correlation between male homicides and the Gini Index is one of the most compelling and accurate social measures there is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... e_equality

Note the disparity between top and bottom 20% of population. US ranks 27 in the world here. I don't take that at face value, but the obvious gulf between the US and other western countries can not easily be covered up as a statistical error or error of data gathering, can it?

Of course homicide is particularly a common occurrence. I am just stating that these crimes reflect something unhinged about the society at large. It is not more poor people that causes murder it is the gap between the rich and less rich, or the poor and less poor (depending on your take.) It is a powerful piece of information to keep in mind. What leads to the inequality is a complex matter and I am intrigued, as I have repeated, about the effect of global media and mass communications? I think we've yet to gather enough data on such a thing yet though considering its a very recent phenomenon.
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Steve3007
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » December 14th, 2017, 11:40 am

BG:

Of course, one of the main things that leads to the inequality is the notion that inequality, in itself, is not a bad thing. I've discussed this before with people of a generally Libertarian/unfettered-free-market frame of mind, and I see their point. Inequality in itself is not, on the face of it, a bad thing. Simply being less well off than another person does not affect me. What affects me is my level of well-being in an absolute sense, not a relative sense. The argument goes that a society with extreme inequality is better than a society where everyone is equally poor.

This is the mainstream political position in the US and is a major reason why the US is such an unequal society. It is by choice. Inequality drives wealth creation. Presumably the higher levels of crime which tend to be associated with societies with extreme levels of inequality is deemed to be a price worth paying.
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

Burning ghost
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Burning ghost » December 14th, 2017, 1:07 pm

Just to amend your statement, there is no "tend to be associated" it is a direct correlation which you can see by taking any society in the world and any size population. That is the heart of the point about the Index and correlation to males committing homicide.

What you can see from the links I provided above is that the US and UK are pretty much on the same ground when we're looking at the difference between the top and bottom 10% of the population, but the real kicker is with the difference between the top and bottom 20%, there we can see the US really sticks out.

The argument, if it exists as you presented it, "that a society with extreme inequality is better than a society where everyone is equally poor," is clearly false in regards to homicide. The point it shows is if you have a large majority of males working in a society where they feels they're being ripped off way too much then they'll get pissed off.

That said, there is always some degree of inequality. If we try and force it to be otherwise we are essentially talking about communism (I don't think I need to express the numerous flaws with that ideology?)

Be clear too, I am not saying "correlation" means "cause". Such a strong correlation should not be ignored though especially when we're talking about the ambiguity associated with the social sciences.

If people are liberal then I can well imagine that they will look at some of the points expressed by white supremacists as being partly justified - I have mentioned briefly why I can sympathise with the unrest even if I disagree with the conclusions being drawn, and I can in fact offer counter-evidence to hopefully allow people to take a step back and look at the broader global political picture and the kind of things going on around the globe; into which I would wrap the religious/patriotic mindset many people clutch for in a lightning paced ever fluid world.

From my myopic perspective "White Supremacy" is more 'normal' than in the UK due to the historical foundation of the nation and the political role it has played. My ex girlfriend is from Brasil and she used to do surveys there and people would class themselves as "Caucasian" when she could see quite plainly that they were not. The slavery business in Brasil is something not many people really know about. If you were a slave back then you sure as hell didn't want to be shipped to Brasil! I don't know so much about Brasil politically, but I am sure these wounds are still reflected in society today due to the brutal treatment dished out in those hideous days - then in stepped Lord Thomas Cochrane, one man we can all be proud of, in some fashion, as a worthy human being.
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Belindi
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Belindi » December 14th, 2017, 2:29 pm

Steve,

I don't quite see it like that. The US has a lot of former slaves' descendants who are even yet in the process of emancipation. It was always a fallacy that Emancipation was over and done with in a day. The British are still bothered by too much respect for the rich and aristocratic, who of course were the very people who used the wealth of the colonies, and enslaved labour, to keep themselves in their fortified lifestyles.It's queer that the American extreme-right are aping the worn out doctrines of the English aristocracy.

Laughing at the picture of Aus as a planet with fiery middle.

Burning Ghost wrote:
Disparity of wealth distribution is the underlying factor, regardless of race or culture, which determines general non-violent societies. Note the number of homocides in the US compared to the UK? Not the differences between the US and other countries in Europe.
Yes, but I suggest a particular cause for the wealth differential a cause that is peculiar to former slave societies.The hangover from slavery is apparent when so many Americans believe or simply have the attitude that blacks are inferior people. That the attitude of white supremacy is normal in the USA is evidenced by who is the President right now.

Ecurb
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Ecurb » December 18th, 2017, 12:29 pm

Economic inequality probably affects crime rates (although it makes more sense that it would affect property crime rates than that it would affect murder rates). But so does racial inequality. Even when researchers control for economic status, racial minorities in the U.S. are over-represented in the crime statistics. Why? Nobody knows for sure, but perhaps African-Americans tend to think, "Why should I obey Whitey's laws?" Indeed, why should they?

Cultural diversity may promote cultural dynamism -- but cultural homogeneity promotes an orderly society.

In addition, the old Calvinist notion that economic success is correlated to moral worth (hard work, intelligence, etc.) is an American ideal. It is this notion that leads to bitterness and jealousy, as much as the wealth itself.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Gertie » December 18th, 2017, 6:48 pm

You could say white supremacy is 'normal' for white people...

We've evolved to be tribal critters, that's rooted in our neurobiology, and these tribal predispositions can be triggered by all sorts of things, in the right circumstances.

And historical circumstances have left us a legacy of skin colour being a significant tribal badge, which has been mostly framed by the dominant group in the western history - white people.

But of course we're also very complex and clever critters, who aren't only driven by such predispositions. We can use our big pre-frontal cortexes to understand tribalism and ingroup/outgroup dynamics to dismiss skin colour as irrelevant to 'supremacy', and assess the role of history in how such ideas developed.

All this stuff, the neuro-dispositions and the thinky stuff, is going on in us, messily interacting, with our personal cognitive biases leaning us towards certain evidence and arguments which we can more comfortably assimilate into our world views. How we're raised and our culture being a big part of that. To the extent that many of us are now shocked to think that others hold such notions as 'white supremacy'. America has its own particular history and culture which perhaps provides more fertile ground for these types of beliefs to flourish, but you'll find them anywhere given the right circumstances.

https://vimeo.com/153858146

Burning ghost
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Burning ghost » December 19th, 2017, 10:48 am

Ecurb wrote:
December 18th, 2017, 12:29 pm
Economic inequality probably affects crime rates (although it makes more sense that it would affect property crime rates than that it would affect murder rates). But so does racial inequality. Even when researchers control for economic status, racial minorities in the U.S. are over-represented in the crime statistics. Why? Nobody knows for sure, but perhaps African-Americans tend to think, "Why should I obey Whitey's laws?" Indeed, why should they?

Cultural diversity may promote cultural dynamism -- but cultural homogeneity promotes an orderly society.

In addition, the old Calvinist notion that economic success is correlated to moral worth (hard work, intelligence, etc.) is an American ideal. It is this notion that leads to bitterness and jealousy, as much as the wealth itself.
I was not speculating. The disparity between rich and poor has a direct correlation to male homicides. That is simply a fact which can be measured anywhere on the globe, with any population size, regardless of racial or cultural differences.
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Dachshund » December 20th, 2017, 1:30 pm

Burning ghost wrote:
December 14th, 2017, 7:11 am
Any chance of ignoring D and staying on topic? Talk of the US has now turned into comments about the UK??

This has turned into a pointless rant from one individual in order to derail the topic. I suggest this thread be split? Probably worth back tracking a couple of pages and cutting this away from the replies that were directed at the purpose of the OP?

I guess the drive of this thread lies in Steve's hands. Just a suggestion. Makes sense to keep the discussion relatable to the OP though, right?


That's right, BG, let's keep the discussion focussed on the issue that has been placed (by Steve) on the table for debate. The OP was NOT inviting readers to comment on the relationship between income/wealth disparity in a society and the prevalence of violence crime (males homicide) in that society. We would be grateful, therefore, if you could abstain, forthwith, from obtruding your opinions on this matter on the notice of persons interested in discussing the question originally posed , namely is the "white supremacist" political movement currently gaining momentum and ground in the United States.

The reason I injected the topic if violent Islamic extremism into the debate is because I believe, that the American political scientist Samuel Harrington's influential (1992) hypothesis describing a future "Clash of Civilizations" (in which the greatest threat to world peace would stem from direct conflict between Western civilization and the Islamic world ) has considerable merit. By Western civilization , Harrington means the culture of the predominantly white Europid Christian nations like the US, UK and Australia , etc; considered collectively , that is, as a single, geopolitical. cultural totality/entity. Likewise, the different non-white , chiefly Arab and black African (for example) Muslim-majority nations and their cultures like: Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and so on, will, in the future, eventually cohere into a single, unified, distinctive cultural
unit that is the world's Islamic civilization. Harrington proposes that the Islamic civilization and the West ( i.e. Western civilization) - each firmly convinced of their the superiority of their respective cultures, will inevitably clash on account of and dramatic and irreconcilable innate differences that exist between them, in particular with respect to religion , i.e . Islam vs Christianity.

I believe that we, in the current era of postmodernity, are already beginning to witness the increasing re-consolidation and re-emergence of White Europid political movement that is overtly affirming the objective superiority of White Western cultural and (Christian) religious values and the need to defend them - ( "QUITE RIGHTLY" !! , as the "Beatles" would say against):

(1)" the suicidal postmodernist fixation of late capitalist Western nations (like the US and UK )with the notion of cultural relativism ( and its intellectual offspring in, for ex, support for the mistaken concept of multiculturalism, the rise of a quasi-religious doctrine of political correctness and the very real threat it currently poses to freedom of speech/expression, the modern Western liberal orthodoxy's faith ( Donald Trump excluded , BTW) in social engineering ( cf: Barack Obama , for example) as a means to eliminate inequalities (tout court)in human society and so on).

and

(2): the fast- changing nature of global politics in the post -Cold War world order that has seen factors like, for instance, (a) the role that the rapid population growth in Muslim -majority throughout the late 20th century ( that is ongoing to date) has played in generating the kind mass youth unemployment and disaffection that provides an abundance of ready recruits for extremist Islamic militant groups (b) dramatic advances in cyber- communications technology that have sharply increased interaction between the West and Islam, and served to highlight the radical differences that exist between each other's fundamental/essential cultural values/identities. These factors and many others ( which I lack the time and energy to set down right now), lead a numbers of of today's expert, geopolitical strategists in the West to warn of the nascent rising of an Islamic civilization (of the kind Harrington predicted) that is * fundamentally opposed to White/ Western cultural ideals; * that is, by any reasonable definition, innately violent and extreme and * that is fanatically committed to the establishment of a new theocratic Islamic world order by whatever means it may take - force if necessary.

In conclusion, might I say that BG seems to me like one of those passe, po-faced , puritanical, "cultural marxists" ( Belindi, as well) :) who do not yet realise that the Cold War is over; that the great battle between Western liberal democracy, Western-style universal individual human rights and Western free-market capitalism verses the "dead hand" of Marxist- Leninist political ideology ended in Germany on the evening of the 9th of November 1989 when (thank God) the Berlin Wall fell and the good guys (the US) finally won. YAAAAAAAY !!! So, Mr BG, please spare us your outdated, tiresome theories and boring concerns about how inequalities in wealth distribution (sub-text: Western capitalist imperialism/hegemony) in human societies are still the true root of all evil in the new ,post -Cold War world order. The threat that we, - the inhabitants of, and proud participants in, Western civilization face in the future will, I tell you, not come from out of the metaphorical" rifle barrel" any half-baked political ideology, like Marxism, nor in the form of individual nut-cases like Chairman Mao or Nikita Kruschev or Kim Jong Ung, but very likely from the onslaught of a hostile, extreme and fanatically violent . unified, anti-Western religious culture, namely, an Islamic civilization.

PS: Steve ,in my next post I will resume the painstaking task of trying to explain to you why you cannot whip out the "No True Scotsman Fallacy" on me when I say that the term "moderate Muslim" is an oxymoron - I think that's where we left off our discussion before being so rudely interrupted by the (irrelevant) topic of how disparities in wealth distribution correlates with the prevalence of male homicide in all of the world's different nations/societies.

Regards

John

Ecurb
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Ecurb » December 20th, 2017, 2:18 pm

Burning ghost wrote:
December 19th, 2017, 10:48 am


I was not speculating. The disparity between rich and poor has a direct correlation to male homicides. That is simply a fact which can be measured anywhere on the globe, with any population size, regardless of racial or cultural differences.
Where do you get your statistics? Even granted that you are right (crime statistics are notoriously unreliable, and many governments under-report to seem more peaceful than they are), correlation is not causation. It might very well be true, for example, that cultural diversity or the existence of disenfranchised minority groups are correlated to BOTH high murder rates and economic inequality. If so, which is the more important factor?

In addition, a quick glance at the statistics shows that you are exaggerating the correlation. Here's a list of the countries with the highest murder rates (I assume most of the murders are "male").https://list25.com/25-countries-with-th ... the-world/

Here's a list of the countries with the greatest economic inequality: https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/ ... -countries

Top five murder rate countries include zero countries in the top five in economic disparity. So the correlation isn't quite as "direct" as you assert (I have no idea how accurate these stats are, they resulted from a 3 minute google.)

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