Simple, Fair Immigration System

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Idk
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Joined: September 1st, 2014, 11:09 am

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Idk » January 29th, 2018, 1:41 am

Scribbler 60, I too want the best and brightest, your post alarmed me, and so I set out to find some facts. On the first link from Canada dot ca, the benefits, not only to families but to Canada, are listed in the evaluation section of the Canadian family reunification link from the government source. The evaluation was done in Harper's time.

It's late and I have ony skimmed these links in response to your concerns about the program but it does not look to me as if there are many grandparents allowed.

Anyone who has not paid into it in working years does not get CPP, and OAS is only after being in residence for a certain number of years - may still be ten, I don't know. These people have sponsors and also have to pass medical tests. I know it does put added strain on healthcare even more than there already is. They also add to the economy in many ways, even if only in child care while the sponsor works.

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-re ... tml#a3.6.3

The limits are low, often filled in days, and are quite strict according to this link.

http://ccrweb.ca/en/psr-toolkit/other-u ... nification

My concern is about the last link you provided when people do not get all the facts, and social media spreads opinions.

Question - how many of the million immigrants mentioned are going to be allowed throught the reunification part of the program? Too tired to do more tonight.

As I have not done extensive research myself and am not familiar with the system, I too may have misunderstood some of the nuances, but there is always Google if you need to clarify anything. 😀

Idk
Posts: 42
Joined: September 1st, 2014, 11:09 am

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Idk » January 29th, 2018, 1:48 am

Addendum - I don't remember how to edit - it's been a while. I discovered when I checked to make sure the links were hot that the second link is about refugees, not immigrants, so my comment about numbers of grandparents may be different for immigrants. And the word is "through"

Eduk
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Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Eduk » January 29th, 2018, 5:06 am

Politics is interesting. I've never suffered from it so I really don't know how it feels. I'd love it if a previous sufferer could write about how it makes them feel.
For example if the weather man says there is 90% chance of rain tomorrow afternoon we realise this is an estimate. We have no idea how the computer models work and we wouldn't pretend that we could come up with a better estimate. We also understand something like the weather is horribly complex to estimate and that even the very best possible computer model is still an estimate. And then we take a coat and maybe a brolly with us.
But as soon as something like global warming becomes political everyone suddenly becomes an expert. I have no idea what this feels like? Does it feel helpless? Can you feel your mind shutting down?

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Scribbler60
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Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Scribbler60 » January 29th, 2018, 12:01 pm

Idk wrote:
January 29th, 2018, 1:41 am
it does not look to me as if there are many grandparents allowed.
In years past, the prime focus on immigration was on economic and educational status. There was - still is - a points system where a potential immigrant filled out a series of forms and got a score depending on their financial resources and educational attainment.

Like I said, that system still exists, but now on top of that there's a system whereby parents, grandparents etc can also be brought to Canada who do not have to undergo that points system

See Sponsor your parents and grandparents and Canada immigration reopens Parents & Grandparents family reunification lottery
Idk wrote:
January 29th, 2018, 1:41 am
Anyone who has not paid into it in working years does not get CPP, and OAS is only after being in residence for a certain number of years - may still be ten, I don't know.
Yes, it's 10 years. See Old Age Security – Eligibility

There's also the GIS - Guaranteed Income Supplement - to which immigrants can apply even if they have not paid into the system. See Guaranteed Income Supplement – Eligibility

And, of course, that's just Federal initiatives. There are also Provincial systems aimed to support immigrant populations, and refugees get benefits that natural-born Canadians, including our indigenous population, don't, such as free dental care, free prescriptions and other benefits. Please see Liberal government fully restores refugee health care program

I'm not making a value judgement on that; I think it's vital that we do our part to help those in dire straits, fleeing conflict etc. And we have to recognize that doing so means costs, and those costs need to be examined so we can do things more efficiently.
Idk wrote:
January 29th, 2018, 1:41 am
Question - how many of the million immigrants mentioned are going to be allowed throught the reunification part of the program?
The Minister of Immigration has stated that he wants to see about a million new immigrants accepted into Canada by 2020. About 60% of them will be "economic class" immigrants. That means that roughly 400,000 new immigrants look to be family reunification status or refugees. See Canada to admit nearly 1 million immigrants over next 3 years

Note that after four years of being in Canada, the refugee population still has issues with employment and continues to be reliant upon social assistance. This chart, taken from Statistics Canada, shows that a minimum of about 22% and a maximum of about 40% of refugees who came to Canada between 1999 and 2007 remain on social assistance. Social Assistance Claims Among Refugees to Canada, 1999 to 2007 (I tried to link this directly to the image of the chart but apparently the chart is too big.)

Idk
Posts: 42
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Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Idk » January 29th, 2018, 9:29 pm

Scribbler60 - love your nom de plume! Thanks - I'm checking your links.

It often seems to me that humans always want everything from the government but nobody wants to pay for it. Many governments get into power when they promise tax cuts, but voters don't realize that means benefits have to be cut too. I think they may have different ideologies about how, but our governments past and present all do the best they can for everyone with the resources available.

First - The healthcare renewal for refugees, a separate issue, was court ordered. The current federal government had no choice unless we want to change our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The complexity caused by the earlier changes negated any savings anyhow and just shifted the burden to provinces.

Federal healthcare coverage of refugees takes the responsibility off our provincial healthcare system, so the blame for waits in hospitals can be firmly placed on the Ontario government that has not even kept up with inflation in their grants to hospitals for years, let alone allow for aging infrastructure, and even the natural increase in population, let alone immigrants and refugees.

If you live in Ontario with an election coming up, now is a good time to write the party leaders that they'll get your vote if they look after the crisis in hospitals. And ALL HOSPITALS are in crisis in Ontario with staff being told they have to cut care - somehow - and they don't know how - so they can keep their doors open.

You can quote me on that.



To sponsor anyone to immigrate to Canada there are stringent requirements and for parents and grandparents there are even more concerning the sponsor's financial obligations for TWENTY years for both them and their dependants (sic), with repayment to the government for any social assistance of the sponsored.

Because of the stringent rules, it does not bother me that in extreme cases immigrants can apply for GIS. Terrible things like dying or going bankrupt must happen to a sponsor before a sponsored person can apply for GIS and a non sponsored person may get a partial one if a person worked in a country with a treaty with Canada. Amount depends upon how long they've lived in Canada.

With thinking I was still on the federal website, I made a mistake last night when I conflated refugees with immigrants. The million (300,000 a year for three years) immigrants coming in will be either self proficient or sponsored and not entitled to anything except healthcare as residents of Canada as they work and pay their taxes, or the family reunification ones are looked after by their sponsors. Immigrants add to our economy and It makes perfect sense to choose those with skills to do so.

Refugees are another kettle of fish and are a problem everywhere. The world is in a sorry state that these people lose everything because of war. Canada has absorbed only a minuscule number in comparison to many other countries.

I have copied the Conclusions about refugees from the link where your chart up to 2007 was.
::::
Conclusion
Four major findings emerge from this study.
First, 65% to 85% of refugee claimants received social assistance shortly after arriving in Canada.
Second, rates of social assistance receipt among refugee claimants varied more by province of residence and country of citizenship than by family characteristics.
Third, the percentage of refugee claimants receiving social assistance declined considerably with time in Canada. However, four years after arrival, the rate was still three to five times higher than the rate for Canada overall.
Finally, estimates of the percentage of total social assistance expenditures received by refugee claimants ranged from 1.9% to 4.4%.

End quote.
:::::
We need to do our part for refugees till they can get on their feet and their assistance is limited to a time period. I do not begrudge refugees that amount of help.

We need doctors to be Canadian licensed, and yet I have talked to taxi drivers who were doctors in their countries who are working 18 hour days driving cab (scary) just to support their families, so have no time or money to go back to school to get certified.

So I don't know any answers about how to do things more efficiently for any of them. With all the advantages and opportunities Canadians have, why do we even have street people who have lived in Canada all their lives? My family had nothing but after the free public education everyone is entitled to in Canada, we worked our way through university. And jobs were just as scarce back then as they are now. Probably even more so. We have healthcare for everyone so that is no excuse. There are other socio-economic factors, but drugs and self medicating are a big part of the answer to a lot of our problems, I think.

The way our immigration system vets immigrants to be either self sufficient or sponsored seems to work quite well.

So the question always is - how much is our own personal responsibility, how much is the responsibility of government, and how much compassion do we owe to others as refugees when our resources are limited, so we can be seen as taking our share of world problems. After all we want to be seen as good guys so the rest of the world will want to trade with us and help protect us - we have no defenses of our own if attacked.

Idk
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Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Idk » January 29th, 2018, 9:38 pm

BTW - a couple of years ago I was censored and censured for posting a link with general information, not to aid in homework, on this Forum, but I saw you had done it so I did too last night. It is against my nature to not give info for learning so I stopped reading this forum back then. But I get prompts in my email so decided to have a quick look at topics last night when I came across your post and became curious.

The rules still say the forum is not for dispensing information so what about links now?

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Scribbler60
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Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Scribbler60 » January 30th, 2018, 10:06 am

Idk wrote:
January 29th, 2018, 9:38 pm
BTW - a couple of years ago I was censored and censured for posting a link with general information, not to aid in homework, on this Forum, but I saw you had done it so I did too last night. It is against my nature to not give info for learning so I stopped reading this forum back then. But I get prompts in my email so decided to have a quick look at topics last night when I came across your post and became curious.

The rules still say the forum is not for dispensing information so what about links now?
This is curious. I'm not aware of such restrictions, nor have I been censured about it. But if I'm breaching any guidelines about such things, I'll be happy to avoid such links in the future. I simply put them in the post as references so people would know I wasn't making things up.

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