Should the law be ethical?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Post Reply
kordofany
Posts: 56
Joined: April 9th, 2018, 3:57 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Franz Kafka
Contact:

Should the law be ethical?

Post by kordofany »

Why do some require that the law be ethical? Who has an absolute understanding of morality? Does the moral requirement of law make it an instrument of moral guardianship over our actions? The law becomes a weapon to rob our individual freedoms?
Freedom is an Idea in the mind... And reckless behavior is irrational.. I can live free inside the prison.
Image
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Should the law be ethical?

Post by Burning ghost »

If laws weren’t ethical no one would follow them. Try thinking about what you write before posting next time.
AKA badgerjelly
Gertie
Posts: 2181
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 7:09 am

Re: Should the law be ethical?

Post by Gertie »

kordofany wrote: June 24th, 2018, 10:01 am Why do some require that the law be ethical? Who has an absolute understanding of morality? Does the moral requirement of law make it an instrument of moral guardianship over our actions? The law becomes a weapon to rob our individual freedoms?
The pragmatic answer is that we are a social species who choose to live in groups, and have found it beneficial to organise how the group interacts. And freedom to pursue one's own interests will inevitably be compromised for the beneficial goods of group living. The bigger the group, the greater the need for organising it. This can be done in lots of ways, formal (like laws) and informal. In our modern global world of large, heterogeneous, inter-related groups, it gets very complicated. So the need for agreeing certain laws which benefit us as a group are obvious, from forbidding theft and murder, to all driving on the same side of the road.


Morality comes in because it is implied by laws being beneficial, imo. Because I'd claim that morality is grounded in the well-being of conscious creatures, as Harris puts it. So if a law is harmful to the well-being of conscious creatures, then it is immoral. And when laws increase well-being, they are moral, and yes, that's their ultimate justification imo.


The difficulty comes in making those judgements in a complex world of many competing and sometimes contradictory individual interests. There are different philosophical approaches to morality which can help us find moral bases, or touchstones, or rules of thumb, for law-making (eg utilitiarianism, virtue ethics, deontology), and social contract theory. Personally I like Rawls' Veil of Ignorance as a tool for guiding us towards a better, more moral, approach to the Social Contract.

But I'd say none are a perfect one-size fits-all solution. In real life the complexity (and subjectivity of 'well-being') means we have to settle for 'good enough' imo, rather than moral perfection, and we've developed a rough consensus that some strategies work better than others in modern western democracies. Which is democracy, under-girded by a notion of Rights to counter-act the danger of the 'tyranny of the majority'. If we look at history, that's not bad.
kordofany
Posts: 56
Joined: April 9th, 2018, 3:57 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Franz Kafka
Contact:

Re: Should the law be ethical?

Post by kordofany »

[quote]The pragmatic answer is that we are a social species who choose to live in groups, and have found it beneficial to organise how the group interacts. And freedom to pursue one's own interests will inevitably be compromised for the beneficial goods of group living. The bigger the group, the greater the need for organising it. This can be done in lots of ways, formal (like laws) and informal. In our modern global world of large, heterogeneous, inter-related groups, it gets very complicated. So the need for agreeing certain laws which benefit us as a group are obvious, from forbidding theft and murder, to all driving on the same side of the road.

[/quote]

I fully agree with this point.

[quote]Morality comes in because it is implied by laws being beneficial, imo. Because I'd claim that morality is grounded in the well-being of conscious creatures, as Harris puts it. So if a law is harmful to the well-being of conscious creatures, then it is immoral. And when laws increase well-being, they are moral, and yes, that's their ultimate justification imo.[/quote]

Here we will begin to dive in the wavy surroundings around the development of a specific concept of well-being. Because judging the kind of life in luxury will depend on a very personal vision.So a word of well-being as an uncontrolled word can not be a function of another concept.

[quote]But I'd say none are a perfect one-size fits-all solution. In real life the complexity (and subjectivity of 'well-being') means we have to settle for 'good enough' imo, rather than moral perfection, and we've developed a rough consensus that some strategies work better than others in modern western democracies. Which is democracy, under-girded by a notion of Rights to counter-act the danger of the 'tyranny of the majority'. If we look at history, that's not bad.[/quote]

I agree with you that there is nothing perfect. But we have not yet been able to establish a clear definition of morality, let alone moral perfection. It is true that democracy is good. But good for who? There are human systems that feel comfortable only under the rule of the individual, as is the case for tribes in Africa and some Middle Eastern countries. But that this system brings them great stability and perhaps even luxury (according to their vision).
Freedom is an Idea in the mind... And reckless behavior is irrational.. I can live free inside the prison.
Image
User avatar
chewybrian
Posts: 1594
Joined: May 9th, 2018, 7:17 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Epictetus
Location: Florida man

Re: Should the law be ethical?

Post by chewybrian »

kordofany wrote: June 24th, 2018, 10:01 am Why do some require that the law be ethical? Who has an absolute understanding of morality? Does the moral requirement of law make it an instrument of moral guardianship over our actions? The law becomes a weapon to rob our individual freedoms?
Everyone has an absolute understanding of morality because morality is personal and subjective. I can decide if someone else's actions appear moral to me, but they have their own morality, and they may consider their actions in a different light. There is no broad agreement about what makes actions moral or not.

Ethics is implied or expressed elements of the social contract. It could be holding the door open for someone carrying a bunch of packages, turning in a wallet you found to the police station, or not stuffing the ballot box. Unethical behavior may or may not be illegal. There can be small disagreements, but there is broad agreement on most issues as to what behavior is ethical and what is not.

Laws should be driven by ethics, but not by morality. They should be a subset of ethics where the damage from unethical behavior is serious enough to warrant laying down a law, and the possible infringement on the rights of the individual is outweighed by the good that comes from following the law. You wouldn't make a law that you have to hold the door open for someone, even if pretty much everyone agrees it is the right thing to do. But you would make it illegal to stuff the ballot box.

If your intent in writing the law is to impose your own morality on others, you are probably crossing the line; this is not a justification for law, and you should be able to find other sound reasons for the law if it is just. Closing the bars at 2 a.m. is intended to protect people from themselves. It does infringe in a small way on individual rights, but the intent is reasonable enough. But, a law closing all the stores on Sunday in order to encourage church attendance is driven by personal morals, and not by ethics, so it should not stand.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021