Getting started with political philosophy

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Fooloso4
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Fooloso4 »

Just a quick note on translations. It can make a significant difference. I think Alan Bloom's is superior and is available as a free PDF photocopied from the book. I find that if I enlarge the page it is comfortable to read. But like you I prefer books.

http://www.inp.uw.edu.pl/mdsie/Politica ... public.pdf
Georgeanna
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Georgeanna »

Fooloso4 wrote: September 7th, 2018, 11:50 am Just a quick note on translations. It can make a significant difference. I think Alan Bloom's is superior and is available as a free PDF photocopied from the book. I find that if I enlarge the page it is comfortable to read. But like you I prefer books.

http://www.inp.uw.edu.pl/mdsie/Politica ... public.pdf
Thanks.

I had been wondering what others might have read and also what might be considered the 'best' translation. Everyone has an opinion.
I have downloaded this and, after a quick comparison, it does seem that Bloom's is superior.

[ Do you think this is what Smith is using ? ]
Fooloso4
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Fooloso4 »

Do you think this is what Smith is using ?
Yes. I just searched for support for this claim and found that Amazon has the course in book form. If you look at the list of texts for the course it has the Bloom translation of the Republic as well as the West translation of the Apology and Crito I mentioned in an earlier post.
Georgeanna
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Georgeanna »

Having almost completed Book 1 of the Republic, I felt the need to get my head out of it and look around for more background.
To be able to place it within the whole, if you like. What is actually happening here ? What is the aim of all this argumentation between different groups ?

I found this: Plato, the Republic 1-4.

Plato: the State and the Soul

http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/2g.htm

'...Because it covers so many issues, The Republic can be read in several different ways: as a treatise on political theory and practice, as a pedagogical handbook, or as a defence of ethical conduct, for example. Although we'll take notice of each of these features along the way, our primary focus in what follows will be on the basic metaphysical and epistemological issues, foundational questions about who we are, what is real, and about how we know it. Read in this fashion, the dialogue as a whole invites us to share in Plato's vision of our place within the ultimate structure of reality.'

So, foundational questions about who we are...but what has justice got to do with it ? Talking to myself now... Aren't there other virtues to be given equal consideration. Of course there are. Is justice only taken as a specific example? Yes, but there is more to it than that...it is central to harmonization.

'...When each of these classes performs its own role appropriately and does not try to take over the function of any other class, Plato held, the entire city as a whole will operate smoothly, exhibiting the harmony that is genuine justice. (Republic 433e)'

If I read all the Republic as having the goal of Education, then it is in the practice of reading, being challenged and observing the players act out critical thinking - that might bring some 'betterment'. The character Socrates plays the part of teacher at all levels.

The Republic - now available to all - not only the high echeloned guardians of Plato's ideal city.
Georgeanna
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Georgeanna »

Fooloso4 wrote: September 7th, 2018, 1:40 pm
Do you think this is what Smith is using ?
Yes. I just searched for support for this claim and found that Amazon has the course in book form. If you look at the list of texts for the course it has the Bloom translation of the Republic as well as the West translation of the Apology and Crito I mentioned in an earlier post.
I knew about the lectures in book form, however I can't find the list of texts. The Amazon book will not open for me. It is unfortunate that each online lecture doesn't reference Smith's sources which are far superior to the linked freebie.
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Consul
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Consul »

Georgeanna wrote: September 7th, 2018, 12:54 pmI had been wondering what others might have read and also what might be considered the 'best' translation. Everyone has an opinion.
See: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plat ... itics/#Bib
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Fooloso4
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Fooloso4 »

There is one person in here, I don’t know who it is, and you will not know who it is yet, but there is one person in here for whom the reading of Plato’s Republic will be the most important intellectual experience you have at Yale. (4.1)
That was me, except I was not at Yale.
The second half of the book turns in somewhat different, certainly equally important directions (1)
I don’t know if the following is helpful at this point, but since many today reject Plato’s Forms outright and in line with the theme of education I think it may be appropriate.

Given the constraints of an introductory course those turns cannot be adequately addressed, but in case Smith does not address it, it is likely that he is aware of the incompatibility between the paradigmatic philosopher Socrates, whose wisdom was knowledge of his ignorance and the image of the philosopher-king who has ascended from the cave and has attained knowledge of the whole.

The difference is made clear in the following passages:
"Well, then, my dear Glaucon, " I said, "this image as a whole must be connected with what was said before. Liken the domain revealed through sight to the prison home, and the light of the fire in it to the sun's power; and, in applying the going up and the seeing of what's above to the soul's journey up to the intelligible place, you'll not mistake my expectation, since you desire to hear it. A god doubtless
knows if it happens to be true. At all events, this is the way the phenomena look to me … (517b)

“... So tell what the character of the power of dialectic is, and, then, into exactly what forms it is divided; and finally what are its ways. For these, as it seems, would lead at last toward that place which is for the one who reaches it a haven from the road, as it were, and an end of his journey."
"You will no longer be able to follow, my dear Glaucon," I said, "although there wouldn't be any lack of eagerness on my part. But you would no longer be seeing an image of what we are saying, but rather the truth itself, at least as it looks to me. Whether it is really so or not can no longer be properly insisted on. But that there is some such thing to see must be insisted on. Isn't it so?" (532d-533a)
Why must it be insisted on? In part I think the answer has to do with Plato’s philosophical poetry, the image of truth is inspiring, leading one to an ascent to knowledge that breaks the chains of opinion. This is not to say that one no longer opines but knows, but rather he known that opinion is not knowledge. A liberal that is liberating education

Smith:

As one of the great readers of Plato of the last century once said, “Only the surface of things reveals the essence of things.”
This was Leo Strauss. I do not know if Smith studied directly with Strauss but he certainly studied Strauss, having published a book on him and edited another. I mentioned Alan Bloom’s translation of the Republic, Strauss was his teacher. It is no exaggeration to say that Strauss taught a generation how to read philosophy. The exact quote is:
The problem inherent in the surface of things, and only in the surface of things, is the heart of things (Thoughts on Machiavelli)
Smith:
The Republic is also a utopia .... (1.2)
This should not be taken to mean a plan for an actual city.

Down to the Piraeus (3)
Smith notes the theme of descending and ascending. The most famous ascent in the Republic is the ascent from the cave, the philosopher’s ascent. The philosopher, however, much be compelled by reason to descend back into the cave in order to rule after being compelled by force to ascend from the cave . Socrates descends to the Piraeus in order to pray to the goddess. An obvious reversal of the traditional status of the gods above. In the beginning of the dialogue Socrates is compelled by threat of force if necessary to meet with the old man Cephalus who is concerned with the fate of his soul. The discussion of the soul turns to the discussion of the polis, the “soul writ large”. Is the talk of the soul and the city too a kind of descent? What I am suggesting is that Socrates’ speech will not be an ascent to the truth but measured in accord with what he thinks will be most beneficial to them. One of the definitions of justice that is put forth in the dialogue is that justice is what benefits one’s friends.
Georgeanna
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Georgeanna »

Consul wrote: September 8th, 2018, 9:04 am
Georgeanna wrote: September 7th, 2018, 12:54 pmI had been wondering what others might have read and also what might be considered the 'best' translation. Everyone has an opinion.
See: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plat ... itics/#Bib
Thanks for posting this substantial article by Eric Brown who supplies an extensive Reference List of works cited - along with a Big Bibliography and Guide to Reading. So many books, so little time. Brown also generously acknowledges specific and general contributions - interestingly Alan Bloom is amongst those he studied the Republic with at college.

I have only managed to skim through this. However, I did find this summary helpful:

'...Socrates expresses several central political theses in the Republic that appear in other Platonic dialogues, as well, especially in the Gorgias, Statesman, and Laws. First, the best rulers are wise. Second, the best rulers rule for the benefit of the ruled, and not for their own sake. Third, a city is highly unlikely to have the best rulers, in part because there is a gulf between the values of most people and the values of the wise. Fourth, the greatest harm to a city is disagreement about who should rule, since competing factions create civil strife. So, fifth, a central goal of politics is harmony or agreement among the citizens about who should rule. Last, harmony requires that the city cultivate virtue and the rule of law. The consistency of these messages across several Platonic dialogues might well make us so bold as to think that they are the take-home message of the Republic’s politics.'
Georgeanna
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Georgeanna »

Reply to Fooloso4

Well, Smith knows how to prick up the ears of his student audience, doesn’t he?
One person, out of how many ?
I think this exceptional ‘most important intellectual experience’ he mentions must be of a life-changing type - but not by achieving high grades necessarily. Rather a provocation or an answering of an existential question or angst - who am I and what kind of a life do I want to lead ?
Is that what happened to you ? And do you think you were alone?

I think it would helpful, as you suggest, to look at the second half of the Republic - and more besides. Given the theme of education and the constraints of this course, I would be more than happy for a longer, deeper discussion of Plato - perhaps someone has already started a thread along these lines.

What I have picked up on so far in my reading is that even in all the argumentation and apparent conclusions, there is still no real knowledge of what justice is. It is opinion only.
However, we all know it when we see it, don’t we ? The glib politician who spouts forth ' It is right that...' and then enacts laws which result in gross injustices.
It is the kind of knowledge that is important. And what is done with it.
I am disappointed with Smith and his use of quotes - without reference and out of context. Thanks for tracking exact quote down.

I will have to go down to the Piraeus later...
Georgeanna
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Georgeanna »

A quick write-up of quick notes on the remainder of Lecture 4 - simply to keep up momentum. I am being pulled away by the Dialogues themselves, more thoughts to follow. I trust any misreading will be pointed out.

Chapter 4 : The Seventh Letter
It is an intellectual autobiography by Plato, which outlines his motivation for writing the Republic. The action in the Republic takes place well before the Tyranny of the Thirty which replaced Athens democratic constitution. Plato had been invited to join the Thirty, some of whom were his relatives. However, he acted as an observer - eventually concluding that all states were badly governed. He turned to philosophy as a way to discern justice; spoke of the importance of trust in any just administration of political affairs. The Republic's utopia, then, seems to be a response to political disillusionment.

Chapter 5: Analysing the Beginnings of 'Republic' and the Hierarchy of Characters

You know what...I'm tired. I don't need to do this. I've already read Book 1, carefully and closely and read a commentary - I can't be bothered with transposing stuff to the thread. Not just for the sake of it.

I think I'm at the point of giving up...where's Socrates when you need him...
Fooloso4
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Fooloso4 »

An essential part of Smith's class is the discussion groups. While I am sure the lectures come up in discussion, it is the texts that are the focus.
Georgeanna
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Georgeanna »

Fooloso4 wrote: September 10th, 2018, 9:02 am An essential part of Smith's class is the discussion groups. While I am sure the lectures come up in discussion, it is the texts that are the focus.
Understood. I have taken notes on Book 1 and there are more than a few question marks and exclamation marks.
I felt the need for an immediate, live sharing of my thoughts at the point of revelation or puzzlement.

It's difficult to keep the sense of excitement alive...
Especially when tired.
Fooloso4
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Fooloso4 »

Why not rest up then post your reactions to what you read?
Georgeanna
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Georgeanna »

Fooloso4 wrote: September 10th, 2018, 9:56 am Why not rest up then post your reactions to what you read?
I am resting even as I speak.
Can you remember your initial reactions to Book 1 ?
Georgeanna
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Re: Getting started with political philosophy

Post by Georgeanna »

Anyone ?
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