Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Steve3007 »

I read that John Bolton, the Trump Administration's national security adviser, will today be giving a speech indicating the administration's absolute distain for the International Criminal Court (ICC). He will apparently be saying:

The United States will use any means necessary to protect our citizens and those of our allies from unjust prosecution by this illegitimate court.
The United States will always stand with our friend and ally, Israel.
We will not cooperate with the ICC. We will provide no assistance to the ICC. We will not join the ICC. We will let the ICC die on its own. After all, for all intents and purposes, the ICC is already dead to us.
We will consider taking steps in the UN Security Council to constrain the court’s sweeping powers, including to ensure that the ICC does not exercise jurisdiction over Americans and the nationals of our allies that have not ratified the Rome Statute.

Is this music to the ears of tyrants the world over? Has the one tiny chance for the international accountability of the rich and powerful finally been removed? Is this an explicit acknowledgement that, in international affairs, there is one and only rule: the rule of physical force?

Or am I being hysterical and should calm down? Is Bolton right to criticise the ICC?
Georgeanna
Posts: 436
Joined: October 29th, 2017, 1:17 pm

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Georgeanna »

I have no idea what is going on. The world seems truly ****'d.
Thanks for adding to my sense of outrage.
Just what I needed.
Thanks.

Now the end is nigh. I am switching off.
Good Luck to one and all.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Steve3007 »

Jeez, I didn't expect my little topic to have that much of an effect. Don't give up hope Georgeanna. Worse things happen at sea.
Fooloso4
Posts: 3601
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Fooloso4 »

The speech is to the Federalist Society. He is preaching to the choir. The US is not a state party and has never officially recognized its authority. The argument is that this undermines the sovereignty of a nation.

I don’t think this means the we are left with the rule of physical force (A theme from this week’s reading on another thread). Diplomacy and trade sanctions may be a form of force, but not physical force. But if a nation has nothing that others want they are in this regard powerless.

The ICC’s power may lie in its ability to expose injustice. The current administration's concern for reputation seems to be limited to its strong man image, but in a global economy no single person or state gets to call the shots.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by LuckyR »

I predict the ICC will give this bluster it's proper level of attention, they will essentially ignore it.
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Steve3007 »

Fooloso4 wrote:I don’t think this means the we are left with the rule of physical force (A theme from this week’s reading on another thread). Diplomacy and trade sanctions may be a form of force, but not physical force. But if a nation has nothing that others want they are in this regard powerless.
Yes, true. I shouldn't have specifically said physical force.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Steve3007 »

LuckyR wrote:I predict the ICC will give this bluster it's proper level of attention, they will essentially ignore it.
If it's backed up by economic sanctions against judges by the most powerful economy in the world then it's more than just bluster.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by LuckyR »

Steve3007 wrote: September 11th, 2018, 12:00 pm
LuckyR wrote:I predict the ICC will give this bluster it's proper level of attention, they will essentially ignore it.
If it's backed up by economic sanctions against judges by the most powerful economy in the world then it's more than just bluster.
So you predict the ICC will cave to the US?
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Steve3007 »

So you predict the ICC will cave to the US?
I think the current US administration presumably just intends to ignore the ICC. Maybe they're partly right about the ICC. But if they are, then I think the question remains as to whether the whole concept of International Law, and judges passing judgement with reference to that law, is meaningful. Or whether we should just accept that, in an international context, "might is right". Where "might" is economic, military or a combination of the two.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Alias »

Maybe not dead. Certainly comatose. If the US recovers its sanity before the present administration is able to consolidate its power and destroy any semblance of democratic process as well as the constitution, there may be some hope of international law with the US participating.
Alternatively, this latest American tantrum may prompt a new co-operation among the other nations - and, who knows, the US may self-destruct before it can blow up too much of the planet.

I'm not holding my breath.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Steve3007 wrote: September 10th, 2018, 8:19 am I read that John Bolton, the Trump Administration's national security adviser, will today be giving a speech indicating the administration's absolute distain for the International Criminal Court (ICC). He will apparently be saying:

The United States will use any means necessary to protect our citizens and those of our allies from unjust prosecution by this illegitimate court.
The United States will always stand with our friend and ally, Israel.
We will not cooperate with the ICC. We will provide no assistance to the ICC. We will not join the ICC. We will let the ICC die on its own. After all, for all intents and purposes, the ICC is already dead to us.
We will consider taking steps in the UN Security Council to constrain the court’s sweeping powers, including to ensure that the ICC does not exercise jurisdiction over Americans and the nationals of our allies that have not ratified the Rome Statute.

Is this music to the ears of tyrants the world over? Has the one tiny chance for the international accountability of the rich and powerful finally been removed? Is this an explicit acknowledgement that, in international affairs, there is one and only rule: the rule of physical force?

Or am I being hysterical and should calm down? Is Bolton right to criticise the ICC?
Neither Bolton nor Trump represent the international community. They barely represent a tiny minority of Americans.
They are temporary. There is a chance that the US shall wise up - though I'm not going to hold my breath.
The rest of the world shall abide even to the point of the US falling into civil strife and even civil war.
So the answer is no. The rest of the world can get along without you.

Prospects for the US are extremely poor and the little Trump as managed to do, has done nothing to alleviate that; it has only put the US in the wrong direction. The UN were right to laugh at Trump's risible speech. I used to think that Bush was the biggest possible embarrassment to the US, until Trump - could it get worse? Maybe!

What's needed is a true people's movement from the roots to bring radical reform to the US's failed "democracy". Hilary it ain't. Obama was the best prospect yet, but he was rendered impotent by the systems of of corruption, self serving politicians, and the plutocracy.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Steve3007 »

ThomasHobbes wrote:Neither Bolton nor Trump represent the international community. They barely represent a tiny minority of Americans.
They are temporary...
This is true. But while they are in their temporary positions of power they can use the military and (probably more significantly) economic dominance of the US to force through their view of the world, regardless of the small percentage of the world population (and US population) who they represent. I guess this is why the furore over the appointment of Brett Kavanaugh is so huge. Everything in this life is temporary, but supreme court judges are nowhere near as temporary as presidential administrations.
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Steve3007 wrote: October 1st, 2018, 7:55 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:Neither Bolton nor Trump represent the international community. They barely represent a tiny minority of Americans.
They are temporary...
This is true. But while they are in their temporary positions of power they can use the military and (probably more significantly) economic dominance of the US to force through their view of the world, regardless of the small percentage of the world population (and US population) who they represent. I guess this is why the furore over the appointment of Brett Kavanaugh is so huge. Everything in this life is temporary, but supreme court judges are nowhere near as temporary as presidential administrations.
That is for the US to decide, or, more likely, to put their head in the sand over. The UN and the international community can continue to snigger. We'll see if the US are dumb enough to allow Trump to mobile the military. But as far as the OP goes I do no think Tump is going to manage to derail international law in the longer term.
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

ERROR; "mobile" = mobilise. Tump = Trump.

My typing is well orffff! ATM
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Alias »

The trouble is, these days, with technology and all the environmental, economic and human crises, very bad things can happen very fast. Trump is temporary, but he'll leave a wide swathe of devastation - not least, as the harbinger of this current spate of fascist, fascist-like and fascist-lite administrations world-wide. I'm not saying it's his personal fault, only that his prominence has encouraged all the wood-worms to come forth. Most of them won't be as easy to replace as he is...
...and I'm somewhat apprehensive as to the agenda of the president-in-waiting, should Trump spontaneously combust or bit a peach.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021