Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

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Steve3007
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Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Steve3007 »

In George Orwell's novel, 1984, Emmanuel Goldstein was the enemy of The Party who was the main focus of the "Two Minute Hate". The Party line was that he was a former top Party member who had betrayed the Revolution and was now working to overthrow it, as head of an underground organisation called "The Brotherhood". In the novel, the question of whether either Goldstein or The Brotherhood even exist is left open. It is not important, so long as they serve their purpose of being a focus of derision and hatred - a common enemy. The character is often thought to be based mostly on Trotsky.

It strikes me that in the British Labour Party right now, in some ways the vilified figure of Tony Blair seems to serve that purpose to people who always saw "New Labour" as a betrayal of the party's socialist roots. Everyone has to be labelled either a Corbynite or a Blairite. And Blairites appear to be viewed by many on the left of the party as even more disgusting than Tories.

Do you agree? What other Goldsteins are there?
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Sy Borg
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Sy Borg »

Our battle is on the right in Oz, Steve, where the hard right of the Liberal party are fighting with their moderate "small l liberal" faction, and the hatred for them seems at least as great as their hate for Labor.

It should be noted that Murdoch shares their views being the person most responsible for the recent leadership deposition where the moderate Liberal Turnbull was replaced by fanatical Catholic conservative Morrison (who has just announced a $4.6 billion pork barrel for Catholic schools - three times more than given to public schools, that educate 80% of students). The hardest right candidate, Dutton (once unbelievably seen joking with Abbott about the flooding of Pacific Islanders) missed out.

The whole thing was driven and enabled by Murdoch, who arrived in Australia a week before the leadership coup, after which all of his publications (he has 60% of our news readership) shifted into attack mode on Turnbull. It was unreal. It looked like some huge crisis as the Google News feed every day would show this issue reported by about five publications, making it look like big news. In truth, most times ALL of the articles were Murdoch's. This interfering foreigner uses his dominant voice in Australia's news to create a sense of chaos and trouble around any of his targets.

And he is almost completely unaccountable. It is fascinating. Governments are becoming irrelevant; they cannot reign in corporations that are larger and more powerful than they are without resorting to the military. Follow the money and we will find the reasoning behind all major policy decisions. The Kochs. The Rothschildren. The Bushes. The Murdochs.
Eduk
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Eduk »

Governments relevancy has always been overstated. Indeed Orwell wrote a fine book about pigs becoming human. For me the scariest thing about 1984 was the child who just by accusation can harm adults, it is the people who maintain the state.
Likewise with your example Greta. It is the people who allow Murdoch to influence them and maintain his ability to do so.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Burning ghost »

I am not in a position to fully understand the political lamdscape. My Emmanuel Goldstein would likely be anyone in any kind of authority. I’ve said before, when it clmes down to it I am essentially an anarchist - that doesn’t mean I don’t believe in the need for authority I just don’t blindly respect anyone’s authority and especially those that seem to believe they can demand respect. I prefer open venom and hostility over dishonesty, but I also admit I am too much of a coward to always stick to my guns and follow through my own directive of what I deem to be “correct”/“just”/“right”.

I came to the conclusion some years ago that any discord I feel toward another is merely me projecting my own ill-formed self onto the face of others rather than admit I am just as prine to “evil” as anyone else. Basically the Jungian “shadow”.

I am not sure if I can really pin-point any political figure as being a focus of my hostility. In terms of the Orwellian nightmare I guess you’d have to frame someone on the far left as being despotic - Venezuela and Maduro spring to mind.
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Steve3007
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Steve3007 »

Greta,

The insight into Australian politics is interesting. Obviously I'd seen that Scott Morrison had beaten Malcolm Turnbull in the leadership contest, and was aware that Australia has had a large number of PM changes in the last few years, but I wasn't aware that Morrison was a hard-line Catholic.
Steve3007
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Steve3007 »

Anyway, having read your many comments on Murdoch in the past, I think there is definitely a sense in which he is your Goldstein! :D
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Sy Borg
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Sy Borg »

Oh yes, Rupert has been my Goldstein for years! If he did not care more for money than for politics Australia today would have been an effective one party state since the 1950s like Japan. The only reason he occasionally toggles Labor into power is when the Libs have grown so tired and confused by the complexities of governance that they lose the plot. Then he sees more opportunity for profit under Labor. Simply, an American citizen is effectively acting as King of Australia and, as Eduk noticed, we just let him do it with impunity.

How about his performance at the News of the World inquiry? Why isn't the inquiry reopened now that it's clear Murdoch was faking old age forgetfulness? How could the ashen doddering, senile man pretending not to remember anything in that inquiry fly to Australia and have a prime minister changed through an intense campaign within a week? Why is he not being charged for misleading the inquiry? We all know why.

A few years ago Morrison made clear that he is strong representative for the Liberal Party's fossil fuel donors (noting that Murdoch has numerous strong fossil fuel links) https://www.theguardian.com/global/vide ... ment-video

Still, I see bugger all that anyone can do about any of it. History - and no doubt prehistory - has been filled with corruption and injustices. Atrocities, lies, ruthlessness, cruelty and brutality. Yet through all of that dodginess humanity has progressed from the caves to today's attainments, and not just technically, morally too. I suppose one can enjoy an omelette while being mindful of the eggs broken in its making.
Steve3007
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Steve3007 »

Greta wrote:Oh yes, Rupert has been my Goldstein for years! If he did not care more for money than for politics Australia today would have been an effective one party state since the 1950s like Japan. The only reason he occasionally toggles Labor into power is when the Libs have grown so tired and confused by the complexities of governance that they lose the plot. Then he sees more opportunity for profit under Labor. Simply, an American citizen is effectively acting as King of Australia and, as Eduk noticed, we just let him do it with impunity.
An (adopted) American King and a British Queen. New and old colonialism in one. I can see how Australians could get annoyed by that!

Isn't there any hope for opposition to News Corp/News Limited? How about Fairfax Media? Or ABC? I don't know enough about the general media landscape of Australia to get a sense of how biased it looks "on the ground". These days, of course, it's possible to research things from a distance online. But I think that's still no substitute for being constantly immersed in a local media culture, for getting a true sense of things.
How about his performance at the News of the World inquiry? Why isn't the inquiry reopened now that it's clear Murdoch was faking old age forgetfulness? How could the ashen doddering, senile man pretending not to remember anything in that inquiry fly to Australia and have a prime minister changed through an intense campaign within a week? Why is he not being charged for misleading the inquiry? We all know why.
Interesting point. I'll have to look back at that in more detail. To be honest, I only vaguely remember it now.
Still, I see bugger all that anyone can do about any of it. History - and no doubt prehistory - has been filled with corruption and injustices. Atrocities, lies, ruthlessness, cruelty and brutality. Yet through all of that dodginess humanity has progressed from the caves to today's attainments, and not just technically, morally too. I suppose one can enjoy an omelette while being mindful of the eggs broken in its making.
That appears to be the central point that is made by strong advocates of global free markets. They say that for all the injustices and extremes of inequality, in an absolute sense most of the people of the world are better off now than they were before. I think this comes back down to the question of whether we judge our welfare (including our material welfare) in relative or absolute terms. I think it's human nature to judge it in relative terms. And, that being so, the more we know about the world the less happy we are. That may be why ignorance is bliss! And people who enjoy omelettes while barely even thinking about what they're made from (let alone whether the eggs were free range) are happy.
Steve3007
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Steve3007 »

A few years ago Morrison made clear that he is strong representative for the Liberal Party's fossil fuel donors (noting that Murdoch has numerous strong fossil fuel links) https://www.theguardian.com/global/vide ... ment-video
Yes I see. A bit like Trump "digging coal" in his hard hat wearing photo ops.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote: September 27th, 2018, 2:07 amAn (adopted) American King and a British Queen. New and old colonialism in one. I can see how Australians could get annoyed by that!

Isn't there any hope for opposition to News Corp/News Limited? How about Fairfax Media? Or ABC? I don't know enough about the general media landscape of Australia to get a sense of how biased it looks "on the ground". These days, of course, it's possible to research things from a distance online. But I think that's still no substitute for being constantly immersed in a local media culture, for getting a true sense of things.
No problem with the British royals - they seem to mind their own business. Gina Reinhardt (Big Coal) is now a major shareholder of Fairfax so that puts paid to that opposition. The ABC is under constant attack by coal-affiliated politicians, and the board was stacked with conservatives, with regular deep funding cuts to reduce its ability to hold government accountable.
Steve3007 wrote:
Still, I see bugger all that anyone can do about any of it. History - and no doubt prehistory - has been filled with corruption and injustices. Atrocities, lies, ruthlessness, cruelty and brutality. Yet through all of that dodginess humanity has progressed from the caves to today's attainments, and not just technically, morally too. I suppose one can enjoy an omelette while being mindful of the eggs broken in its making.
That appears to be the central point that is made by strong advocates of global free markets. They say that for all the injustices and extremes of inequality, in an absolute sense most of the people of the world are better off now than they were before. I think this comes back down to the question of whether we judge our welfare (including our material welfare) in relative or absolute terms. I think it's human nature to judge it in relative terms. And, that being so, the more we know about the world the less happy we are. That may be why ignorance is bliss! And people who enjoy omelettes while barely even thinking about what they're made from (let alone whether the eggs were free range) are happy.
I remember innocence. I didn't know what was going on. Time and again I'd have to learn the hard lessons of pitfalls to avoid in the future. Innocence is both bliss and terror, toggling between the two.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote: September 27th, 2018, 4:34 am
A few years ago Morrison made clear that he is strong representative for the Liberal Party's fossil fuel donors (noting that Murdoch has numerous strong fossil fuel links) https://www.theguardian.com/global/vide ... ment-video
Yes I see. A bit like Trump "digging coal" in his hard hat wearing photo ops.
Exactly. They are unashamedly corrupt in supporting their lobbyists and investments at the expense of the many and they are backed by a growing mass of evangelists who are looking forward to the prophesied Apocalypse to user in a new age of God's dominion.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Steve3007 wrote: September 25th, 2018, 10:55 am In George Orwell's novel, 1984, Emmanuel Goldstein was the enemy of The Party who was the main focus of the "Two Minute Hate". The Party line was that he was a former top Party member who had betrayed the Revolution and was now working to overthrow it, as head of an underground organisation called "The Brotherhood". In the novel, the question of whether either Goldstein or The Brotherhood even exist is left open. It is not important, so long as they serve their purpose of being a focus of derision and hatred - a common enemy. The character is often thought to be based mostly on Trotsky.

It strikes me that in the British Labour Party right now, in some ways the vilified figure of Tony Blair seems to serve that purpose to people who always saw "New Labour" as a betrayal of the party's socialist roots. Everyone has to be labelled either a Corbynite or a Blairite. And Blairites appear to be viewed by many on the left of the party as even more disgusting than Tories.

Do you agree? What other Goldsteins are there?
The appearance of Goldstein in 1984 suggests he was not the evil one. This means your analogy with Blair is rubbish. Blair is a genuine CU (next tuesday). Blair infiltrated the Labour party pretending to be a socialist. From his 1997 landslide victory Labour was at an all time high in the polls with maximal party membership. Sadly the truth about Blair became known; a Thatcherite and war monger. With each year party membership declined, and the Labour vote declined. With each win the share of the Labour vote declined as did the number of MPs returned to the house. The handover to Brown did nothing to improve the situation. And even the people who had been bought by Blair abandoned any hope of a left wing policy, with the introduction of student fees, extension of student loans, more sales of unreplaced social housing extending the housing crisis, and more tax cuts for the rich.
Milliband did little to change the fall of Labour, as Harriet Harman as temporary leader whipped the MPs to vote for more austerity measures.

Moderate Corbyn is a move to the centre ground of politics from the extremism of Thatcher and Blair.

There is no analogue for Goldstein unless it is Tony Benn and Corbyn during the Blair regime.
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Eduk »

So fashionable to hate Blair. What are your sources TH? Are you privy to state secrets? Or can you read minds? Or did you phone tap Blair?
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Steve3007
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Steve3007 »

So fashionable to hate Blair.
The crude insults flung at him are similar to the photoshopped pictures of him laughing at destruction.

Image

The hatred seems to stem almost exclusively from the Iraq War. It would be interesting see what the general attitude towards him, and by extension towards "New Labour", would have been if that war hadn't happened. Perhaps we might still have had a viable political centre ground.
Steve3007
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Re: Who is your Emmanuel Goldstein?

Post by Steve3007 »

Greta wrote: Gina Reinhardt (Big Coal) is now a major shareholder of Fairfax so that puts paid to that opposition. The ABC is under constant attack by coal-affiliated politicians, and the board was stacked with conservatives, with regular deep funding cuts to reduce its ability to hold government accountable.
As I understand it, the ABC is similar in its supposed aspirations to the BBC - to be an editorially independent taxpayer/license-payer funded news outlet. Not being dependant on advertisers for revenue, they should in theory be free of commercial constraints creating biases or the need for sensational headlines to keep that advertising revenue. But, in practice, it's clearly very difficult to arrange this. In the case of the BBC I suppose its roots didn't even conform to those supposed aspirations in the first place. It was originally very much part of a British Empire establishment.

If the Wikipedia article about the ABC (the section about its independence and impartiality) is to be believed, then the proposition that it has a right-wing bias doesn't seem to be the whole story. Opinions seems to vary as to whether its bias is left or right wing. Similar to opinions about the BBC. Of course, I don't know whether the Wikipedia article is to be believed. I need to dig deeper.
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