Brett Kavanaugh

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Steve3007
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Steve3007 » October 7th, 2018, 8:39 am

I would. But I don't know yet whether there's an online way of listening to that interview. I only posted about it because I'd just listened to it and wanted to lay down a marker, as it were. I'll have a look.

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 7th, 2018, 9:02 am

Steve3007 wrote:
October 7th, 2018, 8:39 am
I would. But I don't know yet whether there's an online way of listening to that interview. I only posted about it because I'd just listened to it and wanted to lay down a marker, as it were. I'll have a look.
I lay down markers all the time. I am thinking it might be a bad habit.
What is better, perhaps, is to give first impressions and relive standout moments. Immediate capture.
What has stuck in your mind ?
Take a look at that.
It's not written in stone and can be reviewed...

Steve3007
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Steve3007 » October 7th, 2018, 9:18 am

What stuck in my mind was that Conrad Black, as a Trump supporter, gave what I thought was an interesting assessment, from his point of view, of the situation.

Here's a link to the part of the BBC website containing today's episode of The World This Weekend:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000n92

The interview starts at about 9 minutes in and goes on to about 15 minutes.

Steve3007
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Steve3007 » October 7th, 2018, 9:34 am

I think the part I found most interesting was the comment on the "Darwinian" brutality of the US system which is both a strength and a weakness, and the thought that Trump exemplifies that, with his emphasis on winners and losers and the general view that to be "a loser" is in many ways the worst of all possible sins. And to be a winner is to be absolved of all other sins. This may be a simplistic exaggeration if applied to the US system as a whole, but it doesn't seem to be an exaggeration as a description of Trumpism.

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 7th, 2018, 9:56 am

Steve3007 wrote:
October 7th, 2018, 9:34 am
I think the part I found most interesting was the comment on the "Darwinian" brutality of the US system which is both a strength and a weakness, and the thought that Trump exemplifies that, with his emphasis on winners and losers and the general view that to be "a loser" is in many ways the worst of all possible sins. And to be a winner is to be absolved of all other sins. This may be a simplistic exaggeration if applied to the US system as a whole, but it doesn't seem to be an exaggeration as a description of Trumpism.
OK, so now I am more tempted to go listen. Ta for giving start and end points of interview. Helpful.
The sin thing. The black and white thinking. The generalisation. The God thing.
The paternalism. The power and the force.
The rising resistance.

I worry about how much Trump, the hate preacher, is getting away with. And so quickly...the tipping point reached.

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 7th, 2018, 11:16 am

Well, I listened to the interview and nothing much stood out for me that hasn't been said before.
It's OK for a President to lie as long as he get the job done. And what is 'the job' ?
To win. To be victorious. To go from strength to strength.
In Trump's case not to maintain and develop civilised progress, thinking and humanity but the opposite. To regress, to brainwash the unthinking believers. To destroy those who disagree, who resist the dogma. To present himself as a Nobel Peace Prize winner. Hah.

Here are the actual winners:

''Congolese doctor Denis Mukwege and Yazidi campaigner Nadia Murad have won the 2018 Nobel Peace Prize.
The pair were awarded the honour “for their efforts to end the use of sexual violence as a weapon of war and armed conflict”.

Dr Mukwege, a 63-year-old gynaecologist, has treated thousands of victims of sexual assault in the Democratic Republic of Congo despite threats to his own life. He has been repeatedly nominated for the Nobel and has won several other awards including the UN Human Rights prize in 2008.

Yazidi rape survivor tells of her time as an Isis sex slave. Ms Murad, 25, became a victim of war crimes herself when she was kidnapped by Islamic State fighters in northern Iraq in 2014.

Two years later she became the first UN goodwill ambassador for survivors of human trafficking. Her fight to bring Islamic State to account for the rape and abuse of an estimated 3,000 Yazidi girls and women is supported by international human rights lawyer Amal Clooney.''

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 69766.html

Does anybody really care about these winners. Where are the congratulations ?
And yet, if Trump had won - Wow !!
It would have been his Greatest Week Ever.

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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Fooloso4 » October 7th, 2018, 2:02 pm

Georgeanna:
In Trump's case not to maintain and develop civilised progress …
It is not just Trump. Progress or progressives are a favorite target of conservatives. There is, as far as I can see, no single objection. For some, it is seen as an attack on Christian authority, which is often rolled together with anti-abortion activism and more recently the denial of equal rights for those who do not conform to what is seen as gender appropriate roles; all of which goes back to some notion of moral turpitude and the decay of values. For others, it is a matter of government interference, taxes, regulations, and social programs. And for some there is a racial element. Most seem willing to turn a blind eye to one or more of these issues in order to promote another. And so, we find, for example, the very same people who until just a few years ago were claiming the fundamental importance of moral character and actions supporting Trump.

The public has become suspicious of government programs. Significant portions have been led to believe that such programs are designed to help others at their expense, but fail to see how much they have benefited. If they could be made to understand how such progressive policies benefit them they would not oppose these programs, or at least be unwilling to abandon them.

Although government has become business by other means, people have been led to believe that their best interests are served by business, and despite corporate welfare, believe that government is anti-business. The pro-business stance, funded by corporate lobbyists, hides behind the image of the small independent business. The relaxation of antitrust regulations has resulted in fewer and fewer corporations controlling larger and larger parts of the economy. Trump’s America first rhetoric is at odds the reality of global economics. On the one hand I think he is just too ignorant to understand this, but on the other, the reality of a global economy is still being framed as progressive ideology and so he scores points with those who, despite the fact that foreign corporations are building manufacturing plants and corporate centers in the U.S. and employing U.S. workers, believe that his America first policies will return jobs to the U.S., and, on the other, he scores points with those who wish to protect their corporate interests from competition.

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 7th, 2018, 3:06 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
October 7th, 2018, 2:02 pm
Georgeanna:
In Trump's case not to maintain and develop civilised progress …
It is not just Trump. Progress or progressives are a favorite target of conservatives. There is, as far as I can see, no single objection. For some, it is seen as an attack on Christian authority, which is often rolled together with anti-abortion activism and more recently the denial of equal rights for those who do not conform to what is seen as gender appropriate roles; all of which goes back to some notion of moral turpitude and the decay of values. For others, it is a matter of government interference, taxes, regulations, and social programs. And for some there is a racial element. Most seem willing to turn a blind eye to one or more of these issues in order to promote another. And so, we find, for example, the very same people who until just a few years ago were claiming the fundamental importance of moral character and actions supporting Trump.

The public has become suspicious of government programs. Significant portions have been led to believe that such programs are designed to help others at their expense, but fail to see how much they have benefited. If they could be made to understand how such progressive policies benefit them they would not oppose these programs, or at least be unwilling to abandon them.

Although government has become business by other means, people have been led to believe that their best interests are served by business, and despite corporate welfare, believe that government is anti-business. The pro-business stance, funded by corporate lobbyists, hides behind the image of the small independent business. The relaxation of antitrust regulations has resulted in fewer and fewer corporations controlling larger and larger parts of the economy. Trump’s America first rhetoric is at odds the reality of global economics. On the one hand I think he is just too ignorant to understand this, but on the other, the reality of a global economy is still being framed as progressive ideology and so he scores points with those who, despite the fact that foreign corporations are building manufacturing plants and corporate centers in the U.S. and employing U.S. workers, believe that his America first policies will return jobs to the U.S., and, on the other, he scores points with those who wish to protect their corporate interests from competition.
Most informative and succinct. I now have a better understanding of the complex weave of conservative objections.
Basically, it's all about Fear and Desire.
Fear of losing control to others seen as less moral, less worthy. Desire to survive, to retain power no matter the immoral means.
Just like the other side.

So given the dastardly set up, what can be done to turn things round before we go to hell in a handcart?
If as an honest atheist, you could only get in power by declaring yourself Christian, would you do it ?
A lie to benefit mankind. I could live with that, I think.
Far better than being a serial liar with a view to narcissistic self promotion...
Perhaps Kavanaugh thinks his mask and his lies don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Steve3007
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Steve3007 » October 7th, 2018, 3:22 pm

Georgeanna wrote:Well, I listened to the interview and nothing much stood out for me that hasn't been said before.
I did have a feeling it had been built up too much! :D It only really started as a casual one-line remark by me after hearing it on the radio.
If as an honest atheist, you could only get in power by declaring yourself Christian, would you do it?
If I lived in a country where openly declared atheists are effectively barred from holding political office, then yes I would. And I presume it must have happened before. But we can have no way of knowing whether it's happened before because if atheists are barred from political office you're not going to hear them declaring themselves as such very much. It's like a less extreme version of the days when being an atheist would get you killed. Naturally, in such circumstances you won't hear many people declaring themselves as atheists.

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 7th, 2018, 3:59 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
October 7th, 2018, 3:22 pm
Georgeanna wrote:Well, I listened to the interview and nothing much stood out for me that hasn't been said before.
I did have a feeling it had been built up too much! :D It only really started as a casual one-line remark by me after hearing it on the radio.
If as an honest atheist, you could only get in power by declaring yourself Christian, would you do it?
If I lived in a country where openly declared atheists are effectively barred from holding political office, then yes I would. And I presume it must have happened before. But we can have no way of knowing whether it's happened before because if atheists are barred from political office you're not going to hear them declaring themselves as such very much. It's like a less extreme version of the days when being an atheist would get you killed. Naturally, in such circumstances you won't hear many people declaring themselves as atheists.
:)
Yeah well, you never know where a casual one-line stand will lead !

Do you think it possible that we could regress to the point where not declaring yourself a believer in God will result in courts not believing your testimony ? or at least seen as lacking in the right kind of morals ? And punishment being meted out accordingly.
I do still have worries about the way forward, or back...all this talk of witch-hunts...

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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Fooloso4 » October 7th, 2018, 4:54 pm

Georgeanna:
If as an honest atheist, you could only get in power by declaring yourself Christian, would you do it ?
If I sought power and concluded that this is the only way I could gain it then I would. If successful one thing I would attempt to do is undermine the necessity of this requirement.

Trump has shown that it is not a necessity, but then again, if he is an atheist he clearly is not an honest one. As with such concepts as truth and facts, he has done his part to further the corruption of the term honesty. His followers seem to equate honesty with saying whatever is on your mind without filter, and thus he above all others is deemed honest because he says what they think but feel compelled restrained from saying.

He has shown that it is not necessary to even appear to be a Christian as long as one appears to side with them. The same people who questioned Obama’s faith and his church attendance even when he attended are silent about Trump’s lack of attendance.

Trump and Kavanaugh both worship at the church of prosperity and entitlement, and both are on the right side of those Christians who are more concerned with the sins of others than with their own. Trump has always made it clear that it is a battle of us against them, and now Kavanaugh in an usual moment of candor and honesty has shown that he too frames things is such terms. Thus both are champions of those who identify themselves as ‘us’, and to be against them is to be against us. In different ways both are members of an elite, in the case of Trump, bought and paid for by his father, and in the case of Kavanaugh, although from more modest but still wealthy economic background, a legacy alumnus of Yale and member of the Federalist Society. And yet both are marketed as anti-elitist. Trump has done nothing to promote anything other than their own self interest. Kavanaugh’s personal record is not so clear cut, but his judicial record is hardly one that promotes the reproductive rights of women or shows him to be a champion of minorities and the poor. And so, he can brag about the diversity of his hiring practices, but while the benefits a chosen few, his judicial decisions harm many many more.

Steve3007
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Steve3007 » October 7th, 2018, 5:38 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:He has shown that it is not necessary to even appear to be a Christian as long as one appears to side with them. The same people who questioned Obama’s faith and his church attendance even when he attended are silent about Trump’s lack of attendance.
I think that's a consequence of the fact that Trump is seen as a dirty but effective tool for doing a job. Nobody considers the religious beliefs of the tools that they use! I presume that's why some religious Trump supporters see him as a gift from God. Gifts don't have beliefs. They just have utility. And Trump is living proof of the notion that God moves in mysterious ways!

But here we are talking about Trump again. He really is very good at getting people like us to talk about him, isn't he? We've got to give him credit for that.

Steve3007
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Steve3007 » October 7th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Steve3007 wrote:...tool for doing a job
What job?

The job of turning the US away from the enlightenment values for which we all admire it and into a Theocracy.

GE Morton
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by GE Morton » October 7th, 2018, 10:41 pm

Interesting comments, especially from those outside the US.

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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Eduk » October 9th, 2018, 3:23 am

There are a lot of spurious slippery slope arguments but I think lying to get political power might be a genuine slippery slope?
I guess it depends on whether you think the voting public are incapable of rational conscious thought and are therefore not free agents. If this is the case then lying to them to get them to do the right thing would be similar to lying to a child to get the child to do the right thing.
Of course with children we replace the lies as the child grows up.
Unknown means unknown.

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