Executing Child Rapists

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Dreamshift
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Post by Dreamshift »

I'm certian many people can rise above the dificulties, but these people are likely the exception and not the rule. I do hope they can, but I sure hope they don't have to. All is fair in love and war, so what kind of soldier is a child? Yes, adults have trouble coping, but children are less than at their prime to do so. Their are disturbed and ill adults true, but what if that disturbed and ill adult is not an adult but the child version thereof. Teen years is the usual time where children enter into the world of love and hate, or at least to a larger degree than they were. In the United States, teen suicide is higher than is comfortible. They are less likely to deal well with emotional trauma than and adult. Its a generalization, but accurate if that's all we're talking in.

A genetic change in order to survive better? I doubt it, since when is killing for any animal helpful but when it comes with food? Killing those in your own species is not completely unheard of in other species, but its especially apparent. We distrupted the natural procession of genetics when we introduced medical care. The blind, the deaf, the mentally handicaped can survive as well--being a psychopath now a days is likely to be the opposite of survival in a species that now is more than just tribal in nature, but works in MILLIONS of people. A better genetic mutation designed for survival would be a better ability to cooperate with others, or have a better sense of empathy, not the lack of empathy needed to kill others. I'm ending my tangent on that subject.

Final point: chidren are on average less capable to cope with their rape then adults. Because of this, it takes a person with less remorse to rape a child (or a very sick person). Should they be removed from society? If they were ever capable of doing that, I'd rather not take my chances with my own theotretical children.
anarchyisbliss
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Post by anarchyisbliss »

Dreamshift wrote:I'm certian many people can rise above the dificulties, but these people are likely the exception and not the rule. I do hope they can, but I sure hope they don't have to. All is fair in love and war, so what kind of soldier is a child? Yes, adults have trouble coping, but children are less than at their prime to do so. Their are disturbed and ill adults true, but what if that disturbed and ill adult is not an adult but the child version thereof. Teen years is the usual time where children enter into the world of love and hate, or at least to a larger degree than they were. In the United States, teen suicide is higher than is comfortible. They are less likely to deal well with emotional trauma than and adult. Its a generalization, but accurate if that's all we're talking in.

A genetic change in order to survive better? I doubt it, since when is killing for any animal helpful but when it comes with food? Killing those in your own species is not completely unheard of in other species, but its especially apparent. We distrupted the natural procession of genetics when we introduced medical care. The blind, the deaf, the mentally handicaped can survive as well--being a psychopath now a days is likely to be the opposite of survival in a species that now is more than just tribal in nature, but works in MILLIONS of people. A better genetic mutation designed for survival would be a better ability to cooperate with others, or have a better sense of empathy, not the lack of empathy needed to kill others. I'm ending my tangent on that subject.

Final point: chidren are on average less capable to cope with their rape then adults. Because of this, it takes a person with less remorse to rape a child (or a very sick person). Should they be removed from society? If they were ever capable of doing that, I'd rather not take my chances with my own theotretical children.
You know I have been thinking about this a lot mostly because of these latest postings and I think that I am starting to change my mind...but just a little. I do think that rape ( no matter who is doing it or who is being raped ) is ever a good thing, and I know that it is very mentally damaging to the people who experience it and even sometime to the people who perform it. know that I think about it the teen years are probably the worst time to experience something as traumatic as rape, so I will say this in response to the overall topic.

Rape is bad
Execution is equally so
I do not think that someone, no matter what crime they committed, should ever be put to death by their own species.
But I do think that rapists should be "dealt with" whether that be through counseling or even through isolation, maybe even hypnotherapy if its that extreme, but I will continue to have empathy for them despite their heinous acts. A rapist is still a human being, and one that still deserves love, and attention, and affection, and friends.
"If there is hope, it lies in the proles." - George Orwell, 1984
Dreamshift
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Post by Dreamshift »

What should they have done then? They willingly removed the liberties of another for their dark pleasure. They likely do have problems, but shouldn't we hold them at least at some level accountable? certianly we should at least remove them in some way from society to prevent another rape. What about repeat offenders? convicted and released (I'd love to have that not happen) and they go and do it agian? severe metal change has to occur for a person who's decided to do the ultimate crime agianst another person. Murder can be justified, Stealing might be neccesary, but Rape is never needed or justified-its horrible. Something very severe should be saved for it, and even more so for a child rape. I should find more logical arguements, and usualy do--but its something thats so horribly degrading and painful that I can't bare it happen to anyone ever.
anarchyisbliss
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Post by anarchyisbliss »

Dreamshift wrote:What should they have done then?


In the mid-west, in a state that I have forgotten, they make repeat child molestation/rape offenders post a sign on their front yard saying that a child rapist/molester lives here", and they have to put a bumper sticker on their car ( if they have one ) saying that they are a child molester/rapist. I actually think thats a good idea, the offenders still get to live their lives and go to the store and spend time with family and have fun with friends and not have to sit in a jail cell or a therapist's office.

severe metal change has to occur for a person who's decided to do the ultimate crime agianst another person.

That is true, but it is still possible.


If a person wants to rape someone, you have to remember that yes their victim is going to go through a lot, but the offender is too, and as I have said before they are still humans beings and they still have a natural right to life, so execution is out of the question for me, but yes I do think something should be done because no I would not want to be raped, nor would I want anyone to have to experience that. But humans are sexual creatures and that can not be changed except for by nature, not by law.
"If there is hope, it lies in the proles." - George Orwell, 1984
Dreamshift
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Post by Dreamshift »

I will conceede to the fact that a child rapist is likely to have many problems of their own. From what I've heard some child rapist were raped themselves as a child. Nature is a numbers game, and its more efficient to try to rehibilitate than burry, and if such said person can be braught back to the society they were part of, then only with extreme caution and survallence. If it is made QUITE clear that a person is a child rapist, then so be it if they should re-enter society. Should they commit the crime agian, and after treatment, then very drastic measures should be taken. I do feel though, that a second ruined life isn't worth the trouble to discover if a person can or cannot be reintroduced to the public.

I've noticed that I have real aversion to accepting such opinions, I wonder if it is because some opinions might be misconstrued as my own self, or in a way part of my self deffintion, but I'm trying to grow from this site, and this is the first breakthrough I guess in my understanding of the sick: they should be treated no matter what they have commited. I don't like it, but its both more efficient in a society, and quietly justified--even in the case of a child rapist.
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bittercrank
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Post by bittercrank »

One of the problems that exist in cases of child rape is the matter of gaining evidence from the child, especially if the child is very young. A very young child can not provide good testimony with respect to being abused - partly because the line between "leading the witness" and merely asking questions of a child is very blurry.

If there is medical evidence proving who is the rape victim, then that is less of a problem, but that isn't always going to exist.

Personally, I don't know what to make of child rape. It seems so far outside of even run of the mill abnormal behavior that it is hard to imagine what kind of mental state would have existed in the rapist mind.

I also don't know to what extent a typical pedophile shares characteristics with a child rapist or a child murderer, for that matter.

I suspect that pedophiles (especially ones that say, collect images) are not in the same league with individuals who might rape a child. Possibly not even in the same ballpark. I think child rape/child murder is a crime of a very disordered personality.

The actual mental and personality characteristics of a typical pedophile - say an adult who longs to have sex with a 15 year old girl or boy, is probably not very different than the average person.

There was a case here where a woman beat a 4 year old to death for soiling his clothes. Again, this seems like a very disordered mind and personality.

I am not sure either what the real rationale for capital punishment is. Vengeance? Social hygiene? Crime deterrence? Tradition? It costs less than life imprisonment?

Capital punishment is not at the top of my list of social concerns, but any state that does execute people, had better be damn sure they have the right body on the gallows. Illinois stopped executions because a review of past and future executions revealed that a significant number were not actually guilty of the crime - they had been falsely convicted.
mark black
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Post by mark black »

Kill Them...in horrible and painful ways, in public, on TV, and on the internet. Anyone who rapes a child is beyond redemption...and i don't care that they may feel these desires, have a w*nk, but touch a kid and know you will be dragged across broken glass and fed into a meat grinder feet first.
Dreamshift
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Post by Dreamshift »

I have read Star Ship Troopers and it put forth the idea of Corpral punishment for crimes commited in my head. I worry about the system utilizing them and punishing an inocent man. With a prison system you can put them up and then find out they were inocent and let them go with little to no metal anguish for their time done (I also think they should be compinsated in labor lost because of their unrightful incarceration.) but if you decide to punish them that way you can't find a suitable retrobution for the pain unduely given. Its for the inoscent fautlily proven guilty that I would not do such things to. Repeat offenders are another issue entirely and it is obvious that these people cannot be rehibilitated or helped and should be put down. Or permanently instiutionalized without any option to be reintroduced into the public.

Final word: we shouldn't pursue corpral punishment because one inoscent is worth 100 guilty persons.
Better to argue and discuss disenting opinions, than to all agree and never know the truth.
mark black
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Post by mark black »

dreamshift,

It's not suggested that these people are punished for having such desires, only for acting on them.

At present, here in the UK they face a few years in jail, as the result of a legal process, that as bittercrank points out is fraught with difficulties.

Thus, IMO, where guilt is determined - detterent is emphasized, and IMO, should be so radically severe as to quash the libido of others at the point of decision.

The calculus of your reasoning - that it is better to let 100 guilty men go free than convict 1 innocent man is unbalanced by the 500 or so victims whose lives are effected by the 100 guilty men you would set free.

Though I would concede that in cases where the sentance might be death by torture there should be no ambiguity, it's these 500 innocents that require protection and weigh most heavily upon the balance of justice.
Dreamshift
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Post by Dreamshift »

No one should be punished for being sick, sadly those who were molested as a child usually turn out to be a child molester themselves. They should be treated. But if they do commit the act, then they should be removed from society and for MANY years, at least 10-20 years without any chance of early dismissal. Its a terrible thing that they had done, but if they can be changed and reintroduced into the world, it should be done and with strong caution. Should they commit it agian. THEN either they be sentenced to death or permanent imprisonment because they obviously could not control themselves and therefore should be removed from society so they can't continue to ruin childrens'/peoples'lives. Corptral punishment seems more likey to serve our vengange than justice. It also feels like it would reduce us to the level of the accused and it is they who are sick not us (relatively I guess). While I hate others to cause such terrible pain, I also could not cause that terrible pain on the victimizers. I'd rather have more rational punishments and treatments, than vengeful attacks. I would rather not become the Spanish Inquisition.
Better to argue and discuss disenting opinions, than to all agree and never know the truth.
mark black
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Post by mark black »

dreamshift,

I agree that these people are sick, but generally, not in a way that impedes thier ability to form intent. The abnormal character of the desire is irrelevnt to the formation of intent - and therefore to the question of guilt.

And as I've said, because of the particular difficulties detecting and prosecuting this awful crime, detterent is emphasized. The grevious nature of the penalty is designed to effect the formation of intent in others, as much as punish the guilty.

Instead, you would house and clothe these monsters for such a long time they become institionalized, then relaease them into society. Whereupon you say:
Should they commit it agian. THEN either they be sentenced to death or permanent imprisonment because they obviously could not control themselves...
Even if this were valid reasoning - which it's not, you would kill people unable to form intent. Or lock them up forever at the tax-payer's expense. But it's not valid reasoning for the simple reason that for the instituionalized it's harder to live in society than it is to live in prison.

I appreciate your sentiment but I would slice the Gordian knot - and the child rapist right down the middle. It would save the tax-payer a fortune, serve justice, and act as a powerful deterrent. And, of course, it would make great TV!
Dreamshift
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Post by Dreamshift »

Well, I guess will disagree at the most vital point: Determism and Exetentialism. I am a Determinist with the belief that freewill modifies behavior, as well as the fact that they will be held accountable. Because of this, I think they either couldn't help themseves, or knew better and their sick desire overran that knowledge. This crime isn't the same as murder, because one might benfit from it--not just satisfy some sick desire. You might kill to protect the knowledge of your illicit crimes, or you might premtively kill a person to save your own life in a gun fight. Murder can be treated this way, because most often they knew better, but their selfishness caused them to do it and that should be detered at much as possible. Child Rapists are not the same, their sick and should be delt with like mental patients. But they should be held accountable (as this does modify behavior) and so should serve time. Why? because for those wrongly accused they have still the chance to get out of their undue sentance. If they repeat (and its wrong to discover this through the pain of another child, but who's liberty is more valid than anothers?) then they must be removed, I would elect death sentence because it is obvious, even after adiquate treatment, they still commit the crime. If they serve time, they're likely to be killed my inmates anyway (Yeah, Child Rapists aren't even liked in that crowd either). No third chances for anyone for this crime, but a chance to rehiblitate is a worthy cause because it hightens the value of a human life, and could recover anothe productive person to the collective of society--furthering the betterment of the whole of mankind.
Better to argue and discuss disenting opinions, than to all agree and never know the truth.
anarchyisbliss
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Post by anarchyisbliss »

To MarkBlack:

You say that a child molester's desire would not impede his ability to form intent...

Can you control your attraction to the opposite sex ( or the same sex if you are a homosexual ?
"If there is hope, it lies in the proles." - George Orwell, 1984
mark black
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Post by mark black »

anarchyisbliss, attraction? no. behaviour? yes.

dreamshift, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

All, Sorry, but i'm just done talking about this. It's a really unpleasant subject.
Dreamshift
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Post by Dreamshift »

Mark, I can accept that and will do so with respect. You do contribute meaningfully to the subject, and I do have open ears to your opinion. My goals in philosophical debate is to find the most effecient ways to organize and to be productive in the context of a society. I believe the more people we rehibilitate, the more people we have contributing to the betterment of the human condition. I did and still do share your feeling of disgust and distaste of the horrid thing that is Child Moestation. And I don't want to see one child hurt that way, but I don't think that corpral punishment will do much better than the death penalty, and it would likely have us seen as barbarians in the global theatere. Yet, I'm still cross on corpral punishment. A prison sentence is less humiliating than a good old fashioned whipping. No one wants to be humiliated, so its likely that less would commit the crime. OR they will be even more stealthy in their crime commiting. But then agian, its likely that they are as stealthy as they can be already.
This idea of corpral punishment is almost synonmous with the vengeance thread. Maybe we should start another thread for corpral punishment? I always like it when a thread spurs on more threads.

to bring us back to the question at hand. Who does it help to exicute the Child Molesters?
Better to argue and discuss disenting opinions, than to all agree and never know the truth.
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