Politics and Politicians

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
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Juice
Posts: 1996
Joined: May 8th, 2009, 10:24 pm

Post by Juice »

First I think we need to make a clear distinguish between politics and the politician. One being the science or art of government and the other being a person who considers politics a profession. Let us not confuse a career politician with one who studies or has an interest in politics. And let's make a distinction between the career politician and a public servant.

I find it misleading to make the claim that the US has more people in prison than any other nation. Although true it is because the US is a free nation and respects the freedom of information act plus "juries" in the US are twice as likely to convict than any other nation which may be due to superior prosecutorial acumen than any fault in the system. I doubt that Cuba and North Korea do not haver crime which happens to be a clam they make.

There is also the question of victimization, in that those who feel safe in reporting a crime and also feel that it is worth reporting a crime, especially considering that many crimes are perpetrated by people known to the victim.

We have one of the best public defense systems in the world, and considering the feelings towards that system is it wise to trust the government with health care or any other public service except the military.

As for marijuana: It is against the law, if one does not like the law work to change it. I happen to like it. No drugs, no drug addicts, less crime, one size fits all.

For your info: I like Venezuela.

You're 66 times more likely to be prosecuted in the USA than in France
If you're in Montserrat, watch your back! Nearly 1% of the population are police officers.
Per capita, South Africa has the most assaults, rapes, and murders with firearms.
Two-thirds of the world's executions occur in China.
America puts many more of its citizens in prison than any other nation.
Two-thirds of the world's kidnappings occur in Colombia.
Venezuela is one of the happiest and most murderous places in the world.
Russia has almost twice as many judges and magistrates as the United States. Meanwhile, the United States has 8 times as much crime.
In the Maldives, there are more than 2 jails for every 1000 people.
One in every three Australians is a victim of crime.
Saudi diplomats have 367 unpaid parking fines in Britain.
In pure number terms, more crimes are committed in America than in any other nation. The same goes for burglaries, car thefts, rapes and assaults.
The United States puts 0.7 % of its population in Prison - a vastly higher percentage than any other nation.
India’s criminal courts acquitted over a million defendants in 1999, more than the next 48 surveyed countries combined.
Women make up more than 10% of the prison population in only six countries: Thailand, , Qatar, Paraguay, Costa Rica, and Singapore.
People trust Swedes! Swedish companies are the world’s least-likely to be perceived as paying bribes.
84% of people in Finland feel that they are at a low risk of experiencing a burglary - but just look at how many burglaries they have!
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!
JPhillips
Posts: 207
Joined: October 22nd, 2009, 2:49 pm

Politics

Post by JPhillips »

Really good response Juice. Well thought out and backed up with facts.

I would like to point out one problem with the law against the use of drugs. It is unconstitutional. You see when they drafted the Constitution, this country did not have a drug problem. It says somewhere in the constitution no one has the right to tell you what you can put in the human body.

The first drug laws were passed against the harder stuff like herion and to get around the problem of the Constitution, they used the tax evasion clause. Same thing they did to Al Capone. Nixon later just rewrote the laws to ban controlled substances and any other drug that was declared illegal by law. By this time people had forgotten about the violation of the Constitution part, I suppose.

Okay, before you get the impression otherwise, drugs are really hurting this country and I hate them. I would be okay with the legalization of marijuana because it is not addictive and no worse then alcohol; which is already legal. Other than that, addictive substances, like hard drugs and tobacco, should be definitely be illegal to sell. Any laws that are broken as a result of drug use should be definitely prosecuted and use of drugs should be a reason to increase the prison sentence; such as a person driving under the influence that kills somebody should be treated more harshly than if the person were not under the influence. I do have a problem with money for drugs supporting the drug cartels who are a bunch of violent thugs. So if you want to make it a criminal offense to do hard stuff, make it a criminal offense on the grounds the person is contributing to an enemy of the state. But if nothing else, people should be given a chance for inpatient drug rehab before they are cast in prison with no treatment.

Keep in mind a lot of young people become addicted to drugs (and nicotine) before they are mature enough to make a more rational choice. They grow old enough to know better, but by then, the chemical dependency is really strong and many people can't kick it without some help.

By the way, there have been studies done that show inpatient rehab is cheaper than prison with much better results. Some states are already taking this approach; mandatory rehab for a mandatory number of months that has to be successfully (as determined by the medical professionals) completed.

And close the damn borders. This will help stop illegal immigrants and transport of illegal weapons and drugs.
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Juice
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Post by Juice »

JP-You're right, but you're also wrong, there is a difference between "illegal" drugs and "illicit" drugs both under control of the FDA which classifies drugs, their manufacture and distribution. You can't even make your own aspirin unless you procure FDA approval besides enforcement is a federal issue and a constabulary issue not a constitutional issue. That's why the marijuana legalization lobby has sought FDA approval both as a drug and a food. Remember a meth lab is illegal not only since the chemicals come under federal regulations of procurement but also since the process of manufacture is dangerous. Sure you can put whatever you want in your body unless the procurement of that substance was obtained illegally from an illegal source that includes tomatoes from Mexico.
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!
JPhillips
Posts: 207
Joined: October 22nd, 2009, 2:49 pm

Illegal Substances

Post by JPhillips »

So what gives them the right to say I can't grow my own marijuana plant for my own personal consumption?
Would we have to apply the same laws that forbids the manufacture of alcohol? That would be taxes again, right? Just asking for the sake of debate. I am not a pothead, I promise you. I don't drink either. I also gave up cigarettes 20 years ago before this terrible addiction could cause the death of me.

I just think prisons are overcrowed enough without worrying about potheads. And actually, it is considered a misdemeanor when the person possessess a small amount, at least in most states. I think that proves it is not considered to be as serious a problem as substance like meth or cocaine. Of course if you sell it, it is a felony. It would not bother me if it were legalized and distributed under the same type of rules established for the sale and use of alcohol. I think alcohol does more damage to the human body and is more addictive than pot. On afterthought, maybe we should just outlaw the sale of alcohol and make possession of small quantities a misdemeanor and leave the pot laws alone.

But yes, the hard stuff is completely ruining this country. It is killing productivity and people. We need to get rid of it. Basically I would support ratifying the Constituion to make drugs illegal if necessary, like we amended it with the inclusion of Suffrage and Civil Rights. As you pointed out, all the bases have been covered by the lawmakers so further action is not necessary.

I'll close by sayng, I just support the option of giving drug addicts a real chance of rehab before locking them up in prison.
JPhillips
Posts: 207
Joined: October 22nd, 2009, 2:49 pm

Politicians

Post by JPhillips »

I wanted to comment on what Juice said about there being a difference between politics and politicians.

That is absolutely right. It is not so much our political system that is flawed as it it the career politicians who attempt to twist and turn the laws and the Constitution.

If all the Politicians were truly Public Servants in the true sense of the word, I doubt if there would be so much distrust in government. If we actually had a Government that was under the control of just and reasonable men who believed in justice and fairness for all we would not see all the bickering we have in Washington and the rest of the country and things would actually be done in Washington that are for the betterment of the Nation as a whole, and not just the few. There are always going to be opposing sides on all issues but I honestly believe if there were more trust on both sides, compromise would come much easier.

Government is a human concept put into action, but it can't be better than the humans who act upon it.
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whitetrshsoldier
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Post by whitetrshsoldier »

JPhillips,

I've heard several cases about the constitutionality of drug laws. But I know for a fact that the Supreme Court has upheld the legality of these laws time and again, in spite of protests about 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th amendment violations. Can you tell me where specifically [and how we should interpret] the constitutional right to use drugs?

I'm not saying this to play devil's advocate - I've been researching all day to try and brush up on my case law, and I can't find the Opinions/Sections establishing this right.
"I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings! I'm obviously just insecure with the ineptitudes of my logic and rational faculties. Forgive me - I'm a "lost soul", blinded by my "ignorant belief" that there's such a thing as reality and truth in the world"
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Juice
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Post by Juice »

I have to contend the rehab stat since a person may leave a rehab sober but the relapse rate is high.

People do not get sent to prison for misdemeanors they are convicted of a crime,and recidivism plays an important role in that conviction for THC (Tetrahydrocannabinol) or possession of a controlled substance.

If prisons are overcrowded then we should build more prisons. Considering all the good law abiding citizens in need of employment I believe it would be a good investment.

It is also a known fact that marijuana use can lead to the use of more harmful substances. I am sure that we would all like to believe in the happy go lucky dealer who is just providing a service to consumers but selling and dealing are criminal enterprises with often not immediately observed devastating affects.

I don't believe that the inclusion of civil rights laws did anything that was not already implicit in the Constitution, it only insured that states acted according to the Constitution. In fact I wish there was never a need for those additions and citizens are just allowed to be citizens no matter the race or sex. No more amendments to the Constitution, we should just enforce those precepts, laws and ideas that are the reason for the greatness of this country.
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!
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whitetrshsoldier
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Joined: March 11th, 2009, 1:19 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Frederic Bastiat
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Politicians

Post by whitetrshsoldier »

JPhillips wrote:There are always going to be opposing sides on all issues but I honestly believe if there were more trust on both sides, compromise would come much easier.
Here's my problem with the "call to compromise". Nobody really wants compromise. And for good reason. Because the reality is that there is a right, and there is a wrong. There is no such thing as a situation where 'you can have your right on this one as long as I get mine next time'. The simple fact is that something either works or it doesn't.

A current example would be health care reform. Democrats consider "compromise" the Republicans giving in and accepting a public option, however limited. But Republicans know [yes, know] that a public option is not the answer. So where's the room for "compromise" here?

Same for NAMBLA laws protecting child molestors, laws protecting the right to free speech, etc.
"I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings! I'm obviously just insecure with the ineptitudes of my logic and rational faculties. Forgive me - I'm a "lost soul", blinded by my "ignorant belief" that there's such a thing as reality and truth in the world"
JPhillips
Posts: 207
Joined: October 22nd, 2009, 2:49 pm

Drugs

Post by JPhillips »

We are in agreement that selling of illegal drugs (even marijuana) should be a felony.

I am only talking about people who are caught using, not selling, or where there is legal evidence to show intent to sell. Also, a felony committed by a user should be treated more harshly than if drugs were not involved.

I suppose we probably see addicts differently. I have a background in Social Services. I have a degree in Psych and a minor in Sociology. I have had close contact and numerous conversations with drug and alcohol counselors over the course of my career. I do see addiction as an illness, even if it was self inflicted. Most users start using in their teenage years and don't have enough sense of knowledge to know what they are getting into and how hard it is to beat an addictive disorder (even with rehab). Also once they've become addicts, and the longer they've been addicts, the more impaired they become in making rational judgements. It is too bad as a Society we haven't done a better job of discouraging young kids from ever getting started down that path.

I can't argue with your point that pot leads to addiction to harder drugs. I know older people who use it and have for years and have never had any problems with it as far as I can see. It was on their behalf that I supported the use of it. Also I've known alcoholics who have totally ruined their lives.

Alcohol also leads to harder drugs for some people.
Sometimes people who use alcohol also want to try drugs to get a better high. There is no way of knowing who is genetically disposed to becoming an addict and who isn't. The best thing to do is, as you say, to just avoid it.

There is one other point I will admit and to which you may find objection. I believe strongly in laws meant to protect victims from perpetrators such as acts of violence or theft. I have an issue with laws that I view as being meant to protect me from myself. There are a number of laws I don't agree with and would have no qualms about breaking. We have all heard about ridiculous, old laws that still exist in some areas of the country, even though they are not enforced; laws that are invasive to our individual rights and privacy. That is another reason I view selling differently than using.
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Juice
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Post by Juice »

JP-Then we kill two birds with one stone and give them rehab in prison, that includes the person who drinks himself into breaking the law. I like to imbibe from time to time but do so responsibly and never in the presence of children or when children are in my care or supervision.

If we both agree that there is a problem and "if" we both agree that the problem is not always solved by sympathetic means then it may be time for some Neanderthal means of excise. I propose that all drug dealers be put to death immediately upon conviction. Anyone who drives impaired or commits any act of violence while impaired is immediately subject to forced sobriety for which he must repay the state and any subsequent violations of his sobriety increases, exponentially, the years of his incarceration.

Guaranteed that will cause an immediate and severe drop on irresponsibility.
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!
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whitetrshsoldier
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Joined: March 11th, 2009, 1:19 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Frederic Bastiat
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Post by whitetrshsoldier »

I'm going to go ahead and step in here and state the point that people are always going to break the law, no matter the consequences. So why not give them a place to do it where they can just kill themselves?

I propose the legalization of drugs, and I can guarantee you that pretty much every State will eventually impose another ban. Then, since the Feds own D.C., we can just make that hell-hole our "Red-Light District". Since the politicians there are obviously already on drugs [they must be, right?], they can have that mess to deal with, and it will almost undoubtedly give them a 'crisis' to deal with. They can feel fulfilled with themselves as busy-bodies, the druggies can kill themselves, and we can all just go about our lives like we want to! 8)
"I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings! I'm obviously just insecure with the ineptitudes of my logic and rational faculties. Forgive me - I'm a "lost soul", blinded by my "ignorant belief" that there's such a thing as reality and truth in the world"
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Juice
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Post by Juice »

I had a buddy stationed in DC. It got to the point that he just stayed on base and never left since he was a crime victim five times in the first month after he got there. I agree WTS let's just commit to keeping all the inmates in the asylum.
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!
JPhillips
Posts: 207
Joined: October 22nd, 2009, 2:49 pm

Drugs

Post by JPhillips »

Juice,

I am opposed to the death penalty; even for murderers of the worst kind. When I read about a heinous murder of a loving, caring person committed by some dispicable, hateful loser, emotionally I may think that he deserves to die. If someone murdered a person very dear to me and I had the opportunity, I might be inclined to retaliate violently in spite of my beliefs. However, philosophically I cannot justify it with my beliefs.

I am appalled about the violence being committed by the drug cartels. I am in favor of using whatever force is necessary to bring them down and killing them may be the only option in the event of confrontation. No one should risk his life in an attempt to capture an armed and violent offender. Shoot the bastard.

However,to give another analogy, I still believe the rules of conduct in accordance with the Geneva Convention concerning prisoners of war should be followed.

I do acknowledge the seriousness of the problem and your passion about it.

The death penalty is a different topic altogether and the subject of another forum.
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whitetrshsoldier
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Post by whitetrshsoldier »

Do you believe in murder as a result of self-defense?

Is this not a form of the death penalty, and a far more severe one considering the offender is killed for intent and not for the act he committed?
"I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings! I'm obviously just insecure with the ineptitudes of my logic and rational faculties. Forgive me - I'm a "lost soul", blinded by my "ignorant belief" that there's such a thing as reality and truth in the world"
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Juice
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Post by Juice »

JP-Sorry but I do not share your view on the death penalty although I do believe that considering the length of time it takes to effect that punishment it almost makes no sense unless we are willing to to make the "punishment" immediate. The argument has been that the system is not perfect but since DNA that almost negates that argument. Granted an argument for another forum.

But I believe that we have exhausted the sympathetic forms of dealing with the structure and hierarchy of this country which leads to bureaucracy and massive government. I am firmly committed to a conservative, capitalist and limited government, a return to federalism and individual liberty.

I think we should stop teaching government in schools and start teaching "civics".
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!
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