Patriotism

[Nick_A]

Juice

The type of patriotism that allows a person to purchase a $200 flagpole, a $60 flag of his own free will and money to fly that flag when he sees fit, while he donates as much as he can to St Judes Childrens Hospital.

You seem to imply that substance is more important than appearance. You are behind the times. You simply cannot celebrate the flag or those that have given so much to defend it if it is not "aesthetically appropriate".

http://action.afa.net/Blogs/BlogPost.aspx?id=21474 90020

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Colonel Van Barfoot, who is 90-years-old and a World War II veteran, has been ordered by a Richmond, VA, homeowner's association to remove his flagpole by today's date.

Barfoot lives in western Henrico County in the Sussex Square community, where he moved in July, and has been ordered to remove his flagpole on two previous occasions, Labor Day and Veteran's Day.

The homeowner's association doesn't explicitly forbid flagpoles but they must be "aesthetically appropriate". Short flags are allowed on porches, but Barfoot says that's not the way he was raised to respect the flag.

"First of all, it's not dignified, and it shows you got it in the half mast position... you can walk around here and I'll bet you the American flag is hanging out in the rain, nobody ever checks it", says Barfoot.

Family members say he's the most decorated American combat veteran alive. Barfoot has been awared more than 20 medals, including the Medal of Honor, The Silver Star, the Legion of Merit, The Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts.

Barfoot was wounded in combat three times, and fought in WWII and Vietnam.  

A lot of people are in support of Barfoot, including Senator Mark Warner, who said he's "outraged" that the neighborhood association wants Barfoot to take down the flagpole.  In fact, Barfoot says he will take the issue to court for the right to display his flag as he desires.

Obviously Colonel Van Barfoot is better off dead. His sacrifices are archaic and his desire to celebrate the reason fo his sacrifices is no longer "aesthetically appropriate". Fortunately when Obamacare comes in we can get rid of these people that are not "aesthetically appropriate" and express something deeply patriotic.

[Belinda]

Thank you Richard.
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Nick_A, the semiotics of flagpoles here in England is such that any in your face display of national sentiment is associated with the politically far right, and in a community where the residents tend to be educated and middle or leftish, a resident who displayed a Union Flag, or worse a St George's Cross flag, would be suspected of also reading the Daily Mail, or even of having sympathies with the BNP.

Do you know the abbreviation PLU? (People like us)

[Juice]

Ain't no court going to deny a certified Hero and MOH winner the right to do as he pleases. Col. Barfoot knows what he is doing. My neighbors should beware that I don't start playing reveille, taps and the Star Spangled Banner daily.

[Nick_A]

Ain't no court going to deny a certified Hero and MOH winner the right to do as he pleases. Col. Barfoot knows what he is doing. My neighbors should beware that I don't start playing reveille, taps and the Star Spangled Banner daily.

It seems you are right. Apparently there are people that understand how absurd this threat against Col. Barfoot is.

Virginia Veteran Wins Battle to Keep His Flagpole in Yard
Tuesday, December 08, 2009

RICHMOND, Va. — A 90-year-old Medal of Honor recipient can keep his 21-foot flagpole in his front yard after a homeowner's association dropped its request to remove it, a spokesman for Democratic Virginia Sen. Mark Warner said Tuesday.

The Sussex Square homeowners' association likewise has agreed to drop threats to take legal action against retired Army Col. Van T. Barfoot, Warner spokesman Kevin Hall said.

The association had threatened to take Barfoot to court if he failed to remove the pole from his suburban Richmond home by Friday. It had said the pole violated the neighborhood's aesthetic guidelines.

Neither Barfoot's daughter, Margaret Nicholls, nor homeowners' president Glenn Wilson immediately returned telephone messages.

Dropping the issue effectively ends a request that White House press secretary Robert Gibbs on Monday called "silly."

Warner and Sen. Jim Webb, both Virginia Democrats, had rallied behind Barfoot, a World War II veteran.

In a letter last week, Webb urged the association to "consider the exceptional nature of Col. Barfoot's service when considering his pride and determination in honoring our flag."

Barfoot's fight also has lit up veterans bulletin boards and blog sites supporting him.

Barfoot won the Medal of Honor for actions while his platoon was under German assault near Carano, Italy, in May 1944. He was credited with standing up to three German tanks with a bazooka and stopping their advance.

He also won the Purple Heart and other decorations, and served in Korea and Vietnam before retiring from the service in 1974.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,579773,00.html

[Juice]

A Medal OF Honor winner is entitled to considerable privileges. Obviously something too many people are unaware of. While it may seem that the home owners association peaceable capitulated, I'm sure that rules governing the treatment of MOH winners were enforced.

Thank God some things still mean something in this country.

[Belinda]

Anyone like Col Barfoot in the UK would be accorded all the privileges of his heroism and faithful service, I hope,including what would usually be seen as slightly wacky behaviour such as patriotic ritual display.If he were my neighbour , although I too dislike flagpoles within sight of my leafy garden, I'd vote for him to be allowed to do what he wanted, within the law of course.

[richard swartzbaugh]

Belinda: Thanks for the article. I will read a.s.a.p.

You are consistent in your point of view. You want your countrymen to be helpful in the world. I have nothing critical to say about your willingness to help, except that missionaries and peacecore types simply are eaten or worse by the people they try to help.

Long ago I read Men Against the Sea and Picturn Island and one other book of that trilogy. I've forgotten the author. These books depict English sailors as real mean s.o.bs. I may have gotten a certain bias against England from these few books. I've been there. A very nice country I'd say.

The main ethnic mix in the Midwest is German-Scotish and German-Irish and German several other things. Of these groups, only the Scotch-Irish have been consistently pro-British. The U.S. Government, on the other hand, always seems allied-up with the Brits and Israelis. The mob of Americans, forgetful of their roots, fall in behind.

Americans have mostly left behind them the baggage of European nationalism.

Do you distinguish between nationalism and patriotism? R

[Belinda]

Do you distinguish between nationalism and patriotism? R

I do when they are items in an everyday conversation. Nationalism usually has connotations of narrow tribalism with a smidgin of paranoia or at least distrust of the foreigner. Patriotism is a quiet, not much talked about feeling that can be felt by the most universalist sort of idealogue, who feels about his country simply as the place he lives in and hopes that it still reflects his own ethos.Patriotism--also, something about doing your bit for the old country, but again, it would often be too embarassing to talk about.Maybe football supporters can be loudly patriotic without embarassing themselves. Just my impressions for what they are worth, hardly a representative sample.

But these aren't jargon terms that are precisely defined.

It's not possible to be helpful in the world without knowing what is needed, and how to get it to who needs it without causing offence or disruption of what works okay.In fact, Christian and Muslim hospitals and schools are welcomed by people who are too poor to get secular schools from home grown resources.The religions themselves may be altered for consumption where they are planted, and many of the religiously colonised people may be cheerfully cynical about them, but the help is welcomed.I am sure that I could supply references if I took the time.Anyway, a social anthropologist knows about this more than I do.

[richard swartzbaugh]

belinda: Anthropologists discuss among themselves whether they should get involved in a war effort. The majority think no.

I think anthropologists have good insight, however, into one major question that should come up in any war where the two or more engaged countries have different cultures. For example, can we change the way Afghans and Iraquis think simply by talking to them? Giving them a serious heart-to-heart little lecture with some stern waving of the forefinger. The US army thinks it can "set a good example." This is the "hearts and minds" policy of the US forces.

For these people--the Afghans etc.--this is like water off a duck's back. They pay no attention and just wait for us to go away.

I am a patriot to this extent: I live in a beautiful country literally of milk and honey. There are trees, rivers and fields. The people themselves--not necessarily all of them but at least some of them--are responsible, friendly and good. This is where I would rest my patriotism, only to qualify by saying there are good English and Germans too. America is simply prime realestate.

Unlike perhaps you and many Americans, I do not think this simple appreciation for my country--I would not want to live anywhere else--amounts to a flaming passion (ignis fatuus) to reform the world.

The average American soldier is in the Middle East because he has absolutely no idea--no imagination--what to do with his life. Richard

[Juice]

It is really beginning to become exasperating reading people lament over the role of the military, and with specificity, what the individual who enters military service is able or unable to do with his life, especially when it is the choice of the individual to do what he considers best for himself.

You are clueless Richard, and I mean that in the most sincere manner.

I have been literally all over the world and have witnessed, first hand, acts of compassion from military personnel that would make Mother Teresa stand and take notice.

I have spent time with "men" whose interests vary to such a degree, willingly and openly shared, who are able to make the most dire and uncomfortable situations bearable with wit, talent and tenderness, far away from the comforts we so often take for granted.

While I have been out of active service for some years, and having the experience of several "lives", lived fully including academia I can say that your attitude is totally out of sinc with my experiences, and that is to include those who have lost loved ones or have to care for injured loved ones.

The moderators may find this post hyperbolic but I only wish to stress, for those young people who come across this thread, that the young men and woman who enter into military service today know full well the requirements of their commitment. While we may disagree on the purpose and advantage of the current political and military situation in the Middle East those young men and woman come from our communities they are our neighbors and are no different than any other young person who look to find their way through life with, often, the same sense of combined apprehension and determination as any other. They take with them the IPODS, the skateboards, guitars, footballs, books, photos and memories, good and bad, that every American shares with eachother from a life spent in this great nation, no different, no better.

"Verba movent, exempla trahunt."

"Zu Ihrem eigenen Selbst seien Sie zutreffend."

[Belinda]

Perhaps my idea of Afghanis is taught to me by propagandists. What I have learned is that the Afghanis' country is infested by Taleban and Al Quaeda who are no better than and comparable to Cosa Nostra that infested Italy. I saw a picture on television of an Afghan street market that can take place with a semblance of peaceful trading because our soldiers are keeping the peace there.

I understand that the reason that we have soldiers in Afghanistan is that Taleban and Al Quaeda provide terrorist training camps and terrorists who are often suicide bombers I am sure that an army of occupation is not a very good way of dealing with the problem of aggressive terrorists but what better way is available to us who are the potential victims of terrorists? Pakistan also needs to get rid of terrorist training schools.I wonder why we dont send an army of occupation into Pakistan. I suppose it's because we hope that Pakistan can cope with the problem by itself.

I have to believe an anthropologist when he claims that Afghanis want foreign soldiers to leave their country. But isn't it possible or likely that Afghanis would rather have foreign peacekeepers and a hope of defeating the Taleban and Al Quaeda, than a country inevitably overrun with criminal insurgents?

Am I missing some piece of information? Is there a better way to protect ourselves against terrorists that I have not learned about?

Perhaps the real enemy is not the Taleban but the ruling classes who send ignorant soldiers to do their dirty work among a foreign peoples to make them compliant for their country to carry an oil pipeline from Russia to the coast?

[Juice]

There is absolutely nothing in Afghanistan of worth except for the people. People who have been keep in ignorance and educational darkness by oppressive religious victimization. Women and children abused by men, husbands and fathers who believe goats more valuable than baby girls. The most worthy endeavor in Afghanistan is building schools, courtesy of the ignorant soldier and ignorant soldier engineers.

[richard swartzbaugh]

juice: I have talked with hundreds of military people. A long-time friend, Thomas Dubois, was an officer in the navy. He was a true believer in the Armed Forces, saying he was one of the few who "understood" the Vietnam war. We talked hours on end. I will agree with you, Juice, on one thing: military people are, or can be when older but wiser, very interesting people. I enjoy talking with them, especially the older ones. Of course I've also had veterans throughout the years in my classes. As for my friend Tom, he was simply crazy, God rest his soul.

He wanted to rule the world and thought he had a plan to do that. I argued with him. He had no comprehension that, as the son of a lawyer, I would never agree with him where military stuff is concerned. I just thought his medals and marches and stuff were silly. He'd yell at me. Where I get such friends (there have been others) I do not know. I am in a reminiscing mode.

I'm inclined to think army people are stupid when they go into service; but smarter when they come out. But they are also a bit mentally off.

[whitetrshsoldier]

juice: I have talked with hundreds of military people. A long-time friend, Thomas Dubois, was an officer in the navy. He was a true believer in the Armed Forces, saying he was one of the few who "understood" the Vietnam war. We talked hours on end. I will agree with you, Juice, on one thing: military people are, or can be when older but wiser, very interesting people. I enjoy talking with them, especially the older ones. Of course I've also had veterans throughout the years in my classes. As for my friend Tom, he was simply crazy, God rest his soul.

He wanted to rule the world and thought he had a plan to do that. I argued with him. He had no comprehension that, as the son of a lawyer, I would never agree with him where military stuff is concerned. I just thought his medals and marches and stuff were silly. He'd yell at me. Where I get such friends (there have been others) I do not know. I am in a reminiscing mode.

I'm inclined to think army people are stupid when they go into service; but smarter when they come out. But they are also a bit mentally off.

I'm particularly inclined to think that you're extremely presumptious and naive, Richard, and that your lack of actual PARTICIPATION in life [replaced by OBSERVATION] is what makes you so.

No, I do not believe that we should be in any country for the sake of "reforming" or "spreading democracy". I don't give a flying sh!t about anybody that doesn't personally matter to me; which includes everybody I haven't met and most people I have.

Having said that, I entered the military because they paid for my college, gave me a great starting salary, an outstanding resume, and enabled me to enjoy some particularly unique experiences. It wasn't because I had "no other idea of what to do with my life". It was a selfishly-driven decision that I took advantage of.

Patriotism isn't necessarily a blind and ignorant embrace of one's country or the ideals that it's founded upon. It's more appropriately, I believe, a selfish acknowledgement of a person's preferred place of "home".

I hate everything about this government, but as you said, I love living in this country, and having traveled the world, I wouldn't rather live any place else. As far as my "Patriotism" goes, I'd fight to keep my right to live here, because to hell with everybody else.

[Belinda]

As far as my "Patriotism" goes, I'd fight to keep my right to live here, because to hell with everybody else.

But fighting is not the only way to preserve your rights.
Understanding the other, the foreigner, is another way to preserve your rights.