Patriotism

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Belinda
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Patriotism

Post by Belinda »

Depending on what one means by patriotism, it is an expression of attachment to one's native land and people, or an idolatry of one's native land and culture that excludes everyone and every other consideration unless it be compliant with one's nation and culture.

The classic expression of the latter is jingoism , a term that originated in an old 19th century song

'We don't want to fight

But by Jingo if we do

We've got the guns, we've got the men

We've got the money too!'

Jingoism is not patriotism of course and no lover of his native land would paw the ground like this any more. Would they?
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Post by Homicidal Pacifist »

"Don't trade humanity for patriotism."
- Immortal Technique



To be so proud of something so guilty warrants reconsideration.

I am not proud to be an American.

And no, I will not love it or leave it. I will try to reform it from within; without condoning.

Plus, no country is ready for the likes of me so where should I go?

America divides itself from the rest of the world and the "United" States divide themselves from each other. It's all about which alliance of countries, country, state, city, neighborhood, and home is BEST. This pride and lack of concern for those outside of your district is selfish bigotry based on location.

Don't cheer just for the home team. Cheer for the entire sport of life.

One world. One love.

P.S. - Many patriots support the death penalty and in doing so they are killing their own countrymen. Hypocrisy? Or is a citizen no longer an American when they commit a crime?
"There is one thing stronger than all the armies of the world,
and that is an idea whose time has come."
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whitetrshsoldier
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Re: .

Post by whitetrshsoldier »

Homicidal Pacifist wrote:America divides itself from the rest of the world and the "United" States divide themselves from each other. It's all about which alliance of countries, country, state, city, neighborhood, and home is BEST. This pride and lack of concern for those outside of your district is selfish bigotry based on location.
You're right, HP. We should be proud of the Communist Chinese Mao, who killed upwards of 70 million of his own so that he could bring the "wonderful" society to fruition. We should be proud of Nazi Germany, who only killed 12 million [plus all those in the war] so that they could rein in the 1,000-years wonder that could have been the Third Reich. We should be proud of the Soviets [20 billion slaughtered] or the Hutus in Rwanda [at least a million more].

Or, maybe we should scorn all of them. Maybe we should be proud of the fact that we EMBRACE LIBERTY and not genocidal tyranny. Maybe we are better, after all?
Homicidal Pacifist wrote:Don't cheer just for the home team. Cheer for the entire sport of life.

One world. One love.

P.S. - Many patriots support the death penalty and in doing so they are killing their own countrymen. Hypocrisy? Or is a citizen no longer an American when they commit a crime?
Cheering for the sport of life, HP, requires that we "cheer for life". This means that we support the sustainment of life, and you cannot do this by encouraging those who wish to end life. In fact, you can only do this by ridding the world of those who wish to unjustly end other's lives.

Here's how it works. When "citizens" decide to kill others [or attempt to kill others], they effectively forfeit their right to live. Just as if, when they deprive others of freedom, they forfeit their right to freedom [go to jail]. Or do you dispute the concept of detainment in the form of imprisonment, as well? I mean, how just could it be to "deprive" a person of their freedom? What's the point of living without it?

It is an extremely elementary concept. Deprive somebody of their freedom without cause, you forfeit your freedom. Deprive somebody of their life without cause and you forfeit your right to the same. How simple is that?
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Post by Juice »

For all intent and purposes an individual has an allegiance to self and those things which give him the greatest satisfaction and happiness. Paramount to that ability is that he live in a society which allows him to achieve the greatest amount of personal satisfaction and happiness since he recognizes that historically and for much of the world this is not the norm.

It is because of that deep understanding of liberty that some do what they can so that others can experience those products of freedom for themselves without fear that what they say or think or believe or want to work for can be taken away.

Patriotism does not come from the things outside of the self. From fruited plains, redwood forests, buildings, war machines, cars, houses or religion. Patriotism comes from the things inside of the self. From the ability to be in a place which allows what is inside to be expressed without fear or coercion no matter what it is, and to an unprecedented degree of equality ever seen in history.

HP you are more patriotic than you think since you have expressed some very "unusual" ideas without fear since you know you are part of the greatest country ever to allow such expression without anyone ever saying you are unpatriotic for doing so.

I don't think some realize how much love the American Patriot has for people when he so willingly volunteers to share what is so important inside of himself to give people across the globe a chance to feel what it is like to live in a place where self expression is so worthy that it is encouraged by law since it is an inseparable right of being.
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

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Post by Homicidal Pacifist »

Maybe we are better than Nazi Germany.
Maybe that will soon change if we continue on this path.

Much joy, fulfillment, reformation, and enlightenment can be obtained from within a prison and an inmate can help the world significantly - even if only by his words.
An executed man can do none of this.

Clarification -

I am patriotic in the sense that I do cherish the freedoms we have in America. There are many great things about this country. But I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I would trade all of my freedoms for the cause of ending lethal war.

My freedom is not worth having - nor do I deserve it - if in order to obtain and hold on to those freedoms I deprive deserving people of their freedoms (as happens in war).

P.S. - We DO NOT have freedom of speech! Here's an example... I will now try my hardest to say the word ****. Oh, what happened? The same thing that happens if I try to say it on the radio or T.V. or in a courthouse. ********. Oh, there it goes again. Did I say bullshot? Or bullshut? There's no telling. What's the big deal? It's just one little letter? We're all adults here; we **** every day and **** nearly as often and there's nothing wrong with it, and yet to say the word... CRIMINAL! One can say motherflipper with the same level of anger and inflection and nothing wrong has occured. If anything, it incites a good chuckle. Flipper? Bunch of nonsense. Your country's nonsense.

Not to mention the plight of the fags. And the used to be plight of the Indian, the black slave, the woman, the Japanese civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the list goes on and on and on. At least some progress is being made - as we continue to regress.

I am not content with our level of freedom. I say this as I sit high out my mind while Big Brother comes banging on my door for NOT HURTING ANYONE and the whore across the street is being kidnapped by the police for engaging in acts that were mutually agreed upon by knowledgable and consenting adults.

Our freedoms should be expanded within and extended from us to other countries by not killing them or turning a deaf ear when they are in need (especially in the many cases of poverty and oppression - but again, there's a right way to go about it).

Sorry I'm so picky.

In my mind, to be patriotic should be to concern yourself with the state of the nation for the sake of the nation AND the rest of the world. And to an equal degree. = Humanitarianism.
"There is one thing stronger than all the armies of the world,
and that is an idea whose time has come."
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Re: .

Post by Kzirb »

whitetrshsoldier wrote: Or, maybe we should scorn all of them. Maybe we should be proud of the fact that we EMBRACE LIBERTY and not genocidal tyranny. Maybe we are better, after all?
What about the attempt at Native American Genocide that was going on well in to the 20th century? Did you know that Native Americans were being sterilized in American hospitals up until the 1970's? Also, it's very likely that Hitler modeled his genocidal ideologies after the American Eugenics Movement.

We, as Americans, may preach liberty, but we certainly have not been known to practice it.
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Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
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Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

Incidentally, using the term 'we' to refer to citizens of the United States or to the United States government can be confusing, considering not everyone who speaks English is from the United States. It also makes talking of patriotism confusing, since one would seem to only be referring to USA patriotism.

Anyway, Whitetrshsoldier, pointed out examples of extreme patriotism, such as Mao, Hitler and Hutus--and the patriots who supported them as opposed to the unpatriotic objectors and unpatriotic people who didn't oppose them but hesitated to fully support them at any cost. Indeed, people will commit devastating acts against humans or even mass-murder in the name of patriotism. Somehow for some people the goal of furthering ones own country or nation is worth acts that nobody else would support, like murder, terrorism and drastic infringements on freedom. It creates that 'we-vs-them,' that often manifests as declaring ones own countrymen as being supporters of enemies (who may be just as dangerous or more dangerous than the so-called patriots) if they are not lockstep with the nationalist cause even despite the atrocities (e.g. murder, rape, unwarranted surveillance, etc.) being committed by the nationalists to which many so-called unpatriotic people may object.

This type of patriot may value the life of his countrymen over the lives of other humans. This type of patriot condemns or maybe even attacks his own countrymen for not blindly obeying the cause. This type of patriot condemns his own countrymen if they do not value citizens of his country's lives more than other humans, or value the nation or government more than freedom.

Of course, patriot can mean many things. To some, it may just mean behaving as a local humanitarian. In which case I think most of us would support that. But in those cases why would the term patriot be used as opposed to terms like humanitarian? Why use a term that has such nationalist implications?
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

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I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Post by Nick_A »

Patriotism as I've come to understand it in the positive sense is based on the idea of an extended family with a spiritual connection to help from above. The love, care, and defense of the family unit on a larger scale is a country. When capable of being experienced with the natural humility, I believe it to be a highly developed society expressing positive patriotism.

However once society becomes an idol then everything begins to change. What we know of as patriotism has I think a Roman Pagan origin based on self importance. In this way humility is sacrificed for false pride in man made idolatry.

So when the spiritual contact, nuclear, family, and traditions are lost, patriotism cannot be other than false pride in the ability to "take."

This is where we are now in America. We no longer have a healthy balance between obligations and rights and the emphasis is on "rights". The country is losing its spiritual connection and the nuclear family is crumbling. Its unique nature is based on the constitution and the freedoms it protects and furthers. It is being mocked and abused into oblivion, Under such circumstances, patriotism must degenerate.

So everything taken together assures that the chance for positive patriotism is slipping away in America and being replaced by the idolatry of something that can be taken from and the false pride in being able to do so. When the gravy train stops, then there is nothing, no values, left to rebuild on. Without a constitution of respected freedoms, a family, traditions, and the humility necessary to value obligations, what is there to build on
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Post by Belinda »

Patriotism as I've come to understand it in the positive sense is based on the idea of an extended family with a spiritual connection to help from above. The love, care, and defense of the family unit on a larger scale is a country. When capable of being experienced with the natural humility, I believe it to be a highly developed society expressing positive patriotism.

However once society becomes an idol then everything begins to change. What we know of as patriotism has I think a Roman Pagan origin based on self importance. In this way humility is sacrificed for false pride in man made idolatry.
This is exactly what I mean, Nick. I particularly applaud your use of the word 'idolatry' in this context.

I am especially interested in the possible persistence of Roman militaristic ideals in the present world theatre. Can you say a bit more about this?
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Post by richard swartzbaugh »

[THE LOWER MATERIAL IS ADDED AND WILL NOT NECESSARILY FOLLOW OUT OF THE OVERALL DISCUSSION. rs]

I assume when we say patriotism we mean nationalism. This would make a difference. I believe the word patriotism only applies to the nation (patria?), and not, for instance, to a tribe or ethnic group. Then we have to ask, What is a nation? Then we will be on our way to answering the question, Why patriotism.

We are assuming the nation is something good? Well, first we have to define the word nation.

A clear concept of nation came along probably 1500 ad. with the Spanish and French nations. To have a nation one needs a clear boundary. On the other side of the nation, there would be, presumably, another nation.

Is the nation itself simply a boundary? That is what I'm asking. --richard
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Last edited by richard swartzbaugh on December 21st, 2009, 12:06 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: .

Post by whitetrshsoldier »

Kzirb wrote:
whitetrshsoldier wrote: Or, maybe we should scorn all of them. Maybe we should be proud of the fact that we EMBRACE LIBERTY and not genocidal tyranny. Maybe we are better, after all?
What about the attempt at Native American Genocide that was going on well in to the 20th century? Did you know that Native Americans were being sterilized in American hospitals up until the 1970's? Also, it's very likely that Hitler modeled his genocidal ideologies after the American Eugenics Movement.

We, as Americans, may preach liberty, but we certainly have not been known to practice it.
I don't know which "we" you are referring to, Kzirb, but I do think you ignored the remainder of my post ...
whitetrshsoldier wrote:Here's how it works. When "citizens" decide to kill others [or attempt to kill others], they effectively forfeit their right to live. Just as if, when they deprive others of freedom, they forfeit their right to freedom [go to jail]. Or do you dispute the concept of detainment in the form of imprisonment, as well? I mean, how just could it be to "deprive" a person of their freedom? What's the point of living without it?

It is an extremely elementary concept. Deprive somebody of their freedom without cause, you forfeit your freedom. Deprive somebody of their life without cause and you forfeit your right to the same. How simple is that?
I do not champion the genocide of anybody, anytime. I do not support killing innocent people - ever. I do not favor any type of government intervention into private life for any reason, whatsoever.

Regardless of what transgressions have been committed in the name of this country [by a select number of criminal individuals, BTW] in the past, the primary document that instigated the formation of this free Nation did not either, I can assure you. So I maintain that if we were to support and defend the basic principles laid forth in the Declaration of Independence we would have one outstanding doctrine by which we could establish a sound world.

This is where my patriotism originates from.
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Post by Belinda »

Post: #10 Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject:



I assume when we say patriotism we mean nationalism. This would make a difference. I believe the word patriotism only applies to the nation (patria?), and not, for instance, to a tribe or ethnic group. Then we have to ask, What is a nation? Then we will be on our way to answering the question, Why patriotism.

We are assuming the nation is something good? Well, first we have to define the word nation.

A clear concept of nation came along probably 1500 ad. with the Spanish and French nations. To have a nation one needs a clear boundary. On the other side of the nation, there would be, presumably, another nation.

Is the nation itself simply a boundary? That is what I'm asking. --richard
I did not mean nationalism, Richard, although nationalism may be an upshot of the sort of idolatry of nation that Nick described in #8

I meant that patriotism applies to emotional boundaries of nation-as-an-ideal.Not geographical boundaries, although they too come into the ideal usually in a romanticised way . ("Sea to shining sea," "There'll always be an England where there's a village street", etc) As with all ideals, we need reason, knowledge and good judgement to be able to keep them in check. Ideals should be pro tem only.

The Golden Rule is particularly long lasting as an ideal, and I personally hope that it will last forever. The Golden Rule cannot be compliant with nationalism but it can subsume patriotism.
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Kzirb
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Re: .

Post by Kzirb »

whitetrshsoldier wrote: I don't know which "we" you are referring to, Kzirb, but I do think you ignored the remainder of my post ...
"We" as in a collective United States. What "we" were you referring to? As for the rest of your previous post, I did not see the point in arguing or adding to the concept of action/consequence. Like you said, it's very fundamental.
whitetrshsoldier wrote: I do not champion the genocide of anybody, anytime. I do not support killing innocent people - ever. I do not favor any type of government intervention into private life for any reason, whatsoever.

Regardless of what transgressions have been committed in the name of this country [by a select number of criminal individuals, BTW] in the past, the primary document that instigated the formation of this free Nation did not either, I can assure you. So I maintain that if we were to support and defend the basic principles laid forth in the Declaration of Independence we would have one outstanding doctrine by which we could establish a sound world.

This is where my patriotism originates from.
Staying true to the document, I like that. But how do you express your patriotism? Do you merely defend the nation that harbors this document, or do you work to enforce the ideals found within the document on a country that is failing to do so?

Also, being founded upon embracing liberty does not insure that we do embrace liberty. What I was trying to point out in the last post is that it's clearly shown in the track record of the United States that in the context of murder and genocide, we are not better than the examples you provided. The United States has been depriving people of their liberty and justice since the day it was formed.
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Post by richard swartzbaugh »

Belinda:

you say: "I meant that patriotism applies to emotional boundaries of nation-as-an-ideal.Not geographical boundaries, although they too come into the ideal usually in a romanticised way."

You are saying that patriotism is not simple territoriality, such as most animal species--including man--have.

Rather, you are saying that patriotism is a philosophical construct, had by many people. You are saying that patriotism is a kind of thinking.

I agree with you on this: that patriotism reduced to intellectual terms is simply bad thinking. Philosophically, I am not a patriot.

On the other hand, showing humans the wrong-mindedness of patriotism, and that it is silly, is not going to end it. Patriotism is just one of the many silly things humans do and are going to keep doing. I am happy only not to have any part of it personally.

I do think patriotism has instinctual content. How else would we explain its persistance? richard
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Post by Belinda »

Rather, you are saying that patriotism is a philosophical construct, had by many people. You are saying that patriotism is a kind of thinking.
Richard, I'm saying that patriotism is a pseudo -religious concept and feeling. As with religion, when beliefs become fanatical, patriotism can become dangerous to life and prosperity.Patriotism is a form of Romanticism which must be combined with reason and compassion if it is not to become a dangerous monster as it did with Hitler's fascism. And as it does with the far-right nationalist parties today.
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