Unrealist42 wrote:Outright bans are an entirely inadequate response. It is one thing to not want smokers or loud music in your house or particular neighborhood bars but to ban them from entire towns cities and states is a gross exercise of raw power, not righteous, not right, and not in the service of justice. It is discrimination through the law pure and simple.
I agree. This is what I am saying. Except one thing. I would lump small towns in with condo communities, houses and neighborhoods. Consider a small town that only has 1000 residents. Is it not inconceivable that a large condo community made up of a few very tall apartment buildings could have 1000 residents? So I think the members that voluntarily form that condo community or town have the same right to prohibit any person they want from joining or only allow people to join under certain conditions just as a family in a house in the woods has a right to refuse to let someone become their roommate or only allow that person to become a roommate under certain conditions. Of course, this wouldn't apply to whole cities or big towns. I think New York City has a bigger population than my whole state--Connecticut. There's 169 towns in CT. The town of Union in Connecticut only has about 700. By my calculation that is about 00.008% the population of New York City--City not State. A neighborhood or condo community made up of 00.008% of New York City would have just as much a right and just as little a right as that town in CT to decide who trespasses there and who doesn't and who lives there and who doesn't and under what conditions. My high school class had more than 700 people. There's plenty of hotels that have more than a thousand rooms let alone people.
-- Updated 03 Aug 2012 07:01 pm to add the following --
[From the topic: Privacy in public space/street photography
[...] when people are coming together to be part of a town they can lay down whatever policies no matter how absurd or offensive they are by average national sensibilities regarding how the commons can be used just as is done by roommates who share kitchen and bathroom space. One town can make it so it's illegal to take photographs of anyone in the common space without explicit permission, another can make it a matter of policy that being in the commons means others can take your picture; many may come to more of a middle-ground in which pictures are allowed under various sets of particular circumstances and disallowed under others. One town can ban public nudity--or even require parkas--while another can make it illegal to wear clothes in the commons at all ever, and again most will have something of a middle-ground. The important part here is that it is happening within a single home or small town, not on a state-wide, national or worse of all global level.
Hereandnow wrote:Interesting Scott. But don't you think it is a little disturbing , this idea of legal coersion to conform to a social rule that is so arbitrary as the ones you mention? A town where you are required by law to wear a parka? Arbitrary because it violates Mill's harm principle: minimal government in the private lives of indviduals. Have you abandoned Mill?
I agree with the principle of minimal government in the private lives of individuals
insofar as 'government' refers to non-defensive coercion or violence or a subset thereof. However, my argument is that the policies or terms of how one may use either their personal space or the commons in a shared house/apartment, condo community or small town are NOT instances of government or laws even though they may be called by such terms so at times (e.g. the board of a condo community being referred to as the government or 5 roommates in an apartment voting on what to have for dinner and calling it 'democracy') because those 'rules', more philosophically strictly speaking, are the terms and conditions of a voluntary social interaction and arrangement.
Hereandnow wrote:Also, This "when people are coming together" part smacks of dystopia. For no one comes together; they are already together. And the only way separate them an make rules "of the people" is to have some go here and others go there.
Saying it smacks of dystopia isn't much of a criticism; appearances can be deceiving. Anyway, I think I get your point. I think it is tantamount to the reason why I say the way roommate-relations, condo communities and small towns work does NOT extend to big cities, states, countries or the globe.
On the small level of roommate-relations, condo communities and small towns, people do come together. Most people do move from town-to-town already and do not just stay in the town they are in, and roommate-relationships and condo-communities are even more formalized relationships of coming-together. Indeed, in the latter two cases one generally signs an explicit contract and, in the case of condos or similar homeowner associations, forks over money to buy into the association with an explicit, written agreement to follow the behavioral policies including both a set that guide the commons and a set the guide more personal space (e.g. no loud music after X, no peeing in the swimming pool, no people who have a criminal record at all, no pets, etc.). Also, they often explicitly agree to a system upon which those policies can be modified, agreeing to follow the modified version even if they oppose the modification.
Yes, sometimes this means people will have to split up or move away because of irreconcilable differences. Maybe one roommate farts a lot and the others want to make a rule of no farting in the house but maybe the farter really dislikes the idea of having to go outside to fart all the time, so they decide to part ways and he moves out into a different apartment with other people who allow indoor farting. I think my proposed system works great at having people live together peacefully and stably with minimal need for actual violent, real governmental interference and oversight while having them split up and move around and rearrange in the most utilitarian way according to their own subjective preferences. In that way, it is a social, living arrangement equivalent of free market economics. If you like McDonald's hamburger more than Burger King then go to McDonald's; if someone else prefers Burger King they can go to Burger King. If you want fart indoors and want to live with roommates, then find some roommates that will allow indoor farting and agree to your other conditions and whose other conditions you find agreeable, or if you cannot take your roommate flatulence but are outvoted according to the arrangements you made when you moved in for determining use of the common space, then go find some roommates who are willing to agree to not fart and live with them. Indeed, a model of voluntaryism encourages some movement and reorganization, but I think the amount it leads to roughly lands on the utilitarian-ideal equilibrium between what would be subjectively wasteful via unproductive movement versus wasteful via destructive non-movement.
Hereandnow wrote:Well, if you want to have an abortion, bringing the issue to current controversy, you can go live in New York, but just leave our fair state of Tennessee.
My argument rests on the idea of voluntaryism, or in other words the idea that the ideal political situation is one as void of non-defensive violence and coercion as possible. (Presumably, this leads to theoretical minarchism or anarchism depending on whether or not one thinks even in theory a small amount of organized violence is a so-called "necessary evil" to maintain the otherwise peaceful near-anarchy, a difference we needn't get into here but that I do address in the topic: Is organized offensive violence necessary?
) This is essentially a call for a global ban on any offensive violence including murder, rape, battery, enslavement and robbery and so forth.
The problem with issues like abortion and animal rights is that the debate is mostly about whether or not the would-be victim qualifies as a legal person and thus the action qualifies as, for instance, murder. So issues like abortion and animal rights fall onto a gray area between the things which, under my proposed model, could be banned or not in any given small town but could not be banned on the state-wide, national or global scale and the things that are automatically banned on the global scale an axiom of my model.
Hereandnow wrote:Same goes for the city level. Yo can't kick people out because they don't go along with the program (whihc is essentially what you would be doing if you declared something illegal that a minority did not go along with.
I agree. New York City has a population of over 8 million. It's practically its own country. I am adamantly opposed to state-wide, national-wide and global-wide outlawing of consensual (would-be) crime as I explain in my topic Macro-Criminalization of Consensual Crimes
for the reasons you explain because I do not think the idea of a social contract holds up beyond the level of a small town, especially when considered implicit let alone implicit by birth in that place as opposed to a willful move to that place from another jurisdiction.
Hereandnow wrote:And by the way, what if his majority, and I assume it would be by some kind of direct democray that ideas came to be laws, wanted to burn certain books? Ever hear of Fahrenheit 451?) We all know this is impossible and no one would dare try it. But, as most utopian notions go, gee, wouldn't it be if nice everyone in our small part of the world thought the same about things.
Great example. Yes, my model would allow that. If some apartment building or condo-community wanted to ban books, and as a condition in the contract one signs when becoming a leaser or part of the homeowners association one agrees to not bring in books, to burn all books in their possession and maybe even agree to inspections in which any books found in anyone's condo within the association will be burned. That is tolerable just as it is tolerable to prohibit pets or to come up with and enforce any other number of unique policies. The infringement on freedom would be for that Big City, state, nation or global government to set a single policy about pet-allowance or book-burning in condo-communities that would apply to all condo-communities. That's why the freedom-preserving and best-in-utilitarian-measures is to allow for diversity at the local level via the voluntary social arrangements that are roommates, condo-communities and small towns.