Defining Freedom

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
User avatar
Subatomic God
Posts: 1494
Joined: October 15th, 2013, 11:09 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Subatomic God » August 28th, 2014, 10:34 pm

Granth wrote:
Cosmic mirage = imagined. Sub-realities = brains.

So which came first? The human brain? Or the Universe?
What do you call a cat wearing a turtle's shell on its back? A purpoise.

Granth
Posts: 2084
Joined: July 20th, 2012, 11:56 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Granth » August 28th, 2014, 10:54 pm

Subatomic God wrote:
Granth wrote:
Cosmic mirage = imagined. Sub-realities = brains.

So which came first? The human brain? Or the Universe?
The universe as seen and felt (generally perceived) by the human brain-body arises simultaneously with brain-body. This same universe seen and felt, by human perception/sensory system/central nervous system, is also a sub-reality (cosmic mirage) which therefore arises within the "one reality" (which I have referred to as "Consciousness", as apposed to the mirage producing "human consciousness' - that which I do not identify with but experience its wondrous, and sometimes awful, mirages).

Other organisms and species sees and feels their universe their way while interrelating with our species.

User avatar
Subatomic God
Posts: 1494
Joined: October 15th, 2013, 11:09 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Subatomic God » August 28th, 2014, 10:57 pm

Granth wrote:
The universe as seen and felt (generally perceived) by the human brain-body arises simultaneously with brain-body. This same universe seen and felt, by human perception/sensory system/central nervous system, is also a sub-reality (cosmic mirage) which therefore arises within the "one reality" (which I have referred to as "Consciousness", as apposed to the mirage producing "human consciousness - that which I do not identify with but experience it wondrous, and sometimes awful, mirages).

Other organisms and species sees and feels their universe their way while interrelating with our species.

Then why was the human brain created after 4,000,000 years of cosmic evolution starting with photo receptors being formed prior to the existence of stars?
What do you call a cat wearing a turtle's shell on its back? A purpoise.

Granth
Posts: 2084
Joined: July 20th, 2012, 11:56 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Granth » August 28th, 2014, 11:00 pm

Subatomic God wrote:
Granth wrote:
The universe as seen and felt (generally perceived) by the human brain-body arises simultaneously with brain-body. This same universe seen and felt, by human perception/sensory system/central nervous system, is also a sub-reality (cosmic mirage) which therefore arises within the "one reality" (which I have referred to as "Consciousness", as apposed to the mirage producing "human consciousness - that which I do not identify with but experience it wondrous, and sometimes awful, mirages).

Other organisms and species sees and feels their universe their way while interrelating with our species.

Then why was the human brain created after 4,000,000 years of cosmic evolution starting with photo receptors being formed prior to the existence of stars?
Consciousness branched and formed ever more varied and complex mirrors of itself. Patterns keep patterning.

User avatar
Subatomic God
Posts: 1494
Joined: October 15th, 2013, 11:09 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Subatomic God » August 28th, 2014, 11:05 pm

Granth wrote: Consciousness branched and formed ever more varied and complex mirrors of itself. Patterns keep patterning.

Yes, but the Universe existed before the brain, by that logic, since there's an apex of patterns and the aperture of patterns.
What do you call a cat wearing a turtle's shell on its back? A purpoise.

Granth
Posts: 2084
Joined: July 20th, 2012, 11:56 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Granth » August 28th, 2014, 11:14 pm

Subatomic God wrote:
Granth wrote: Consciousness branched and formed ever more varied and complex mirrors of itself. Patterns keep patterning.

Yes, but the Universe existed before the brain, by that logic, since there's an apex of patterns and the aperture of patterns.
Something exists always. I just call it "Existence" (or Consciousness, or "the one reality").

The brain perceives a universe, but it is a universe that merely reflects the brain's own pattern. It is seeing a version (which we call "universe") OF the one reality.....Existence. We all, however, stand in the Existence Place while being distracted, due to a patterning called "self consciousness", by larger (or smaller) patterns. Brain, because it is a pattern, loves patterns.

The universe of the brain's perception is an arising phenomena just as the patterning brain is an arising phenomena. Each arises together....simultaneously. They are One event. Everything is One event. One moment. One life.

User avatar
Subatomic God
Posts: 1494
Joined: October 15th, 2013, 11:09 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Subatomic God » August 28th, 2014, 11:21 pm

Granth wrote: Something exists always. I just call it "Existence" (or Consciousness, or "the one reality").

The brain perceives a universe, but it is a universe that merely reflects the brain's own pattern. It is seeing a version (which we call "universe") OF the one reality.....Existence. We all, however, stand in the Existence Place while being distracted, due to a patterning called "self consciousness", by larger (or smaller) patterns. Brain, because it is a pattern, loves patterns.

The universe of the brain's perception is an arising phenomena just as the patterning brain is an arising phenomena. Each arises together....simultaneously. They are One event. Everything is One event. One moment. One life.
I call it the blank slate or the zero point. It's a vacuum that draws in all points to a core.

So you are referring to solipsism, as I thought. Sorry, but the Universe existed before the human brain, therefore solipsism contradicts itself.

Tell me why you think solipsism works, when the Universe (matter, amoeba, water, plant, bug, fish, animal) existed before Us.
What do you call a cat wearing a turtle's shell on its back? A purpoise.

Granth
Posts: 2084
Joined: July 20th, 2012, 11:56 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Granth » August 28th, 2014, 11:27 pm

Subatomic God wrote:
Granth wrote: Something exists always. I just call it "Existence" (or Consciousness, or "the one reality").

The brain perceives a universe, but it is a universe that merely reflects the brain's own pattern. It is seeing a version (which we call "universe") OF the one reality.....Existence. We all, however, stand in the Existence Place while being distracted, due to a patterning called "self consciousness", by larger (or smaller) patterns. Brain, because it is a pattern, loves patterns.

The universe of the brain's perception is an arising phenomena just as the patterning brain is an arising phenomena. Each arises together....simultaneously. They are One event. Everything is One event. One moment. One life.
I call it the blank slate or the zero point. It's a vacuum that draws in all points to a core.

So you are referring to solipsism, as I thought. Sorry, but the Universe existed before the human brain, therefore solipsism contradicts itself.

Tell me why you think solipsism works, when the Universe (matter, amoeba, water, plant, bug, fish, animal) existed before Us.
The universe that is sensed exists WITH the senses. Try to explain to a blind man what the color red looks like.

However, the "Universe" within which the senses arise does not look and feel like the universe we sense.

-- Updated August 29th, 2014, 4:39 pm to add the following --

For that matter, explain to an amoeba what the color red looks like. Does the color red reveal itself as the color red to an amoeba? I suggest it does not. But the color red may vibrate as a different phenomena to an amoeba. I suspect, however, that an amoeba's consciousness is less complex as a pattern to perceive such a subtle vibration as the color red.

The universe of an amoeba looks and feels completely different to how our universe looks and feels to us.

The world for a family of humans in Afghanistan who have lived through generations of war sees and feels the world different than I do. They would perceive through a more intense lens of fear.

User avatar
Subatomic God
Posts: 1494
Joined: October 15th, 2013, 11:09 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Subatomic God » August 28th, 2014, 11:39 pm

Granth wrote: The universe that is sensed exists WITH the senses. Try to explain to a blind man what the color red looks like.

However, the "Universe" within which the senses arise does not look and feel like the universe we sense.
A blind man not knowing a color without contrast is not proof that the Universe and our senses are one emergence of cosmic mirages within a self-projected matrix - the Universe planned our existence, via the cosmic tenets (matter, amoeba, water, plant, bug, fish, animal). In fact, a blind man can understand red because color isn't only visual - you can feel it. That's coming from someone who has the ability to feel vibrations, emotions and shapes with their own senses. The brain and the Universe are separate and independent of each other - this Universe existed without the human brain for 4 billion years, and you're trying to tell me that it projects reality? Based on what, because it doesn't sound like you pieced it all together correctly - in fact, you're not that far from me, but you ended up in a black hole statement, so to speak.
What do you call a cat wearing a turtle's shell on its back? A purpoise.

Granth
Posts: 2084
Joined: July 20th, 2012, 11:56 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Granth » August 28th, 2014, 11:43 pm

Subatomic God wrote:
Granth wrote: The universe that is sensed exists WITH the senses. Try to explain to a blind man what the color red looks like.

However, the "Universe" within which the senses arise does not look and feel like the universe we sense.
A blind man not knowing a color without contrast is not proof that the Universe and our senses are one emergence of cosmic mirages within a self-projected matrix - the Universe planned our existence, via the cosmic tenets (matter, amoeba, water, plant, bug, fish, animal). In fact, a blind man can understand red because color isn't only visual - you can feel it. That's coming from someone who has the ability to feel vibrations, emotions and shapes with their own senses. The brain and the Universe are separate and independent of each other - this Universe existed without the human brain for 4 billion years, and you're trying to tell me that it projects reality? Based on what, because it doesn't sound like you pieced it all together correctly - in fact, you're not that far from me, but you ended up in a black hole statement, so to speak.
Talk to a blind person about that rather than just make stuff up. Red does not exist in any way for them.

-- Updated August 29th, 2014, 4:50 pm to add the following --
Subatomic God wrote:. The brain and the Universe are separate and independent of each other - this Universe existed without the human brain for 4 billion years, and you're trying to tell me that it projects reality?.
The universe that existed prior to human brains is not the same universe. The universe that existed prior to human brains exists now BENEATH the universe of our perception. We perceive a relative universe because we are relative forms. We are relative expressions. We express relativity. We perceive by measurement/comparison/contrast. These are processes of relativity. The universe mathematically documented by Einstein is the relative one. He mathematically tried to explain mirages.

User avatar
Subatomic God
Posts: 1494
Joined: October 15th, 2013, 11:09 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Subatomic God » August 28th, 2014, 11:53 pm

Granth wrote:
Talk to a blind person about that rather than just make stuff up. Red does not exist in any way for them.
Incorrect. Sound waves are made of colors and these colors define our moods and frequencies. Simply because a blind man is not aware of them, does not mean your example is validated. Sound waves aren't even generally understood by the general seeing population.
The universe that existed prior to human brains is not the same universe. The universe that existed prior to human brains exists now BENEATH the universe of our perception. We perceive a relative universe because we are relative forms. We are relative expressions. We express relativity. We perceive by measurement/comparison/contrast. These are processes of relativity. The universe mathematically documented by Einstein is the relative one. He mathematically tried to explain mirages.

No, it's the same Universe. Dogs and birds are based on dinosaurs, that's to say that dogs and birds were influenced by the design of a creature that lived millions of years prior to their existence. It is the same Universe, hence scientists can tell how old the Universe is, how it works, based on the phenomenon now, then or what appears to be now, since light takes so long to travel to our planet. Einstein did not try to explain mirages at all. I'm not sure why you want to misrepresent such a great man.
What do you call a cat wearing a turtle's shell on its back? A purpoise.

Granth
Posts: 2084
Joined: July 20th, 2012, 11:56 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Granth » August 28th, 2014, 11:58 pm

Subatomic God wrote:
Granth wrote:
Talk to a blind person about that rather than just make stuff up. Red does not exist in any way for them.
Incorrect. Sound waves are made of colors and these colors define our moods and frequencies. Simply because a blind man is not aware of them, does not mean your example is validated. Sound waves aren't even generally understood by the general seeing population.
Talk to a blind person.
The universe that existed prior to human brains is not the same universe. The universe that existed prior to human brains exists now BENEATH the universe of our perception. We perceive a relative universe because we are relative forms. We are relative expressions. We express relativity. We perceive by measurement/comparison/contrast. These are processes of relativity. The universe mathematically documented by Einstein is the relative one. He mathematically tried to explain mirages.
Subatomic God wrote:No, it's the same Universe. Dogs and birds are based on dinosaurs, that's to say that dogs and birds were influenced by the design of a creature that lived millions of years prior to their existence. It is the same Universe, hence scientists can tell how old the Universe is, how it works, based on the phenomenon now, then or what appears to be now, since light takes so long to travel to our planet. Einstein did not try to explain mirages at all. I'm not sure why you want to misrepresent such a great man.
Einstein was not trying to explain "God". He was trying to explain phenomena. Not why phenomena. There is more than Einstein and there was more relevant information before Einstein.

User avatar
Subatomic God
Posts: 1494
Joined: October 15th, 2013, 11:09 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Subatomic God » August 29th, 2014, 12:04 am

Granth wrote: Talk to a blind person.
Their answer does not have any relevance to how colors behave. How colors behave is based on sound waves, which are scientifically observable.

Einstein was not trying to explain "God". He was trying to explain phenomena. Not why phenomena. There is more than Einstein and there was more relevant information before Einstein.
Yes, phenomena he knew was outside of his brain, not projected from his brain, hence nothing he's said is about solipsism.
What do you call a cat wearing a turtle's shell on its back? A purpoise.

Granth
Posts: 2084
Joined: July 20th, 2012, 11:56 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Granth » August 29th, 2014, 12:14 am

Subatomic God wrote:
Granth wrote: Talk to a blind person.
Their answer does not have any relevance to how colors behave. How colors behave is based on sound waves, which are scientifically observable.
A color's "behaviour" is the color as you perceive it with the senses available to you. A blind person does not perceive color as any behaviour including sound. Ask a blind person, as you hold up the color red before them, whether red exists. Whether they can hear it, even. To do so would be to perform proper science. Otherwise you yourself would remain blinded by relativity.

At some point one has to use common sense and logic rather than use one's own interests and distractions to imagine to know what it is like for another. Otherwise this approach is anti-relational (lacks understanding).

User avatar
Subatomic God
Posts: 1494
Joined: October 15th, 2013, 11:09 pm

Re: Defining Freedom

Post by Subatomic God » August 29th, 2014, 12:17 am

Granth wrote:
A color's "behaviour" is the color as you perceive it with the senses available to you. A blind person does not perceive color as any behaviour including sound. Ask a blind person, as you hold up the color red before them, whether red exists. Whether they can hear it, even. Do do so would be to perform proper science.

At some point one has to use common sense and logic rather than use one's own interests and distractions to imagine to know what it is like for another. Otherwise this approach is anti-relational (lacks understanding).
Incorrect. Sound waves are not subjective, they are objective - they affect us via (anger) red ~ purple (ascension). They are real phenomenon - they exist outside of your human brain. Whether a blind person can or cannot recognize it, does not have any relevance to already observed phenomenon, especially when there's evidence that our planet is on the same frequency as our heart and the planet we live on evolved via the same pattern of colors (red, orange and yellow is the core; green, light blue and dark blue is outside the core; and purple is the Universe).
What do you call a cat wearing a turtle's shell on its back? A purpoise.

Post Reply