Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often thought?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me

With which statement do you agree?

I want it to be illegal for a very poor teenager who was impregnated from being raped by an immediate family member to get an abortion even in the first week of pregnancy even if the doctors can and did detect the baby has severe genetic disorders and that the pregnancy if taken to term would have complications greatly risking the life of both the mother and would-be baby.
7
11%
I want it to be legal for a wealthy woman who is 5 days past her due date (of birth) to get an abortion even though doctors are sure that the healthy baby would be delivered safely and relatively easily otherwise and even though many safe, healthy, loving families are willing to adopt the would-be newborn immediately and even pay the woman significantly for that.
11
18%
I do not agree fully with either one of the above statements.
44
71%
 
Total votes : 62

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#16  Postby Newme » April 25th, 2012, 9:06 pm

Abortion is killing a human child, plain & simple. Child: developing human being. I think the only time killing a human child might be justified is when a pregnancy would endanger the mother's life, but other than that, it is unjustified. Either way, it is cruel & unusual punishment how most abortion killings happen - the child is sucked out by a strong vacume, ripping the body, limb by limb, except the head cannot fit, so it is manually crushed & removed... Most abortions are typically done at 12 weeks gestations, when ALL body systems are present in the child, including the nervous system which sends transmits pain signals... If you watch the full version of the following clip, you'll see the Dr. explain this is typical & at 12 weeks gestation:


97% of abortions are because the mother CHOSE to have sex and CHOSE not to use birth control, but finds the consequences of HER choices "inconvenient." The remaining 3% are due to rape or medical reasons. http://abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html
User avatar
Newme
 
Posts: 1091 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: December 13th, 2011, 1:21 am

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though



Become a member for less ads

Already a member? Login
 

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#17  Postby Okisites » April 26th, 2012, 10:13 am

Sir Scott,

I beg a pardon, because I didn't considered the matter that there's also a risk on the mother's part. Though I will say that I didn't know whether she approached police after being caught in criminal activity or not. If She approached police immediately then pregnancy should be aborted but if she is not then it should not be aborted because in this case she is also be considered as she might agree with those act however she being raped forcibly against her will because she didn't approached the police immediately. If the law let them abort then i think there would be more probability that such reason or argument will be made by the such criminals of future by having a false medical report. It should be remember that the humans whether doctors or officials even lawyers and so on, can be purchased giving a bribe for making a false medical report. Therefore it is actually a green flag shown for having an abortion in such cases whether or not the would-be newborn will get any severe disorders. I think considering all humans at a time, humans cannot be trusted. Actually what happens fully naturally is always correct if there's no human interference between. I think it is right that no such criminal will want such baby will have to take birth. And the law is absolutely correct to not to have an abortion in any case. There's no doubt that this will increase the carelessness in part of criminals to commit such crime. Actually what happens is the Humans actually fear social punishment more than the legal punishment. Any crime actually can brings two types of punishment first is social and second is legal. Many people do not fear legal punishments. But generally people fears social punishment highly that is why i say that regarding any criminal activity people has to think judicially. We have to be very careful in judging about any criminal activity about whether in our decision do we unknowingly forgiving the criminals socially. Society do this thing most of the times unknowingly and emotions motivate them to do this and that's why I think that emotions are invalid and disastrous. Society must bind criminals to have social punishment and should not let them saved by this.

I think even the embryo is nerveless, brainless, non-sentient but it couldn’t be considered as non-humans because if we think so than the abortion will no more a crime. But abortion is a crime because it has a potential to increase the crime rate. And what can increase the crime rate should not be legalize, it’s a fact. Also we must consider embryo as human though it is nerveless brainless and non-sentient. As we like our photo not to be disrespected in front of us though photograph is nerveless, brainless and non-sentient. Anybody cannot hit the statue of justice by shoes whether it is nerveless and brainless and have no sentiments. It will be the contempt of court and anybody will get the punishment. Therefore I cannot consider embryo as non-sentient point of view as it is I think, it is much higher than anybody’s photograph and statue of justice.


John (wooden shoe)

It is very nice to see you very moralistic and compassionate but try this morals be compatible with future consequences also. Not for this case. I may gone wrong conditionally. And natural punishment is better, nobody needs to use weapons or anything, it is automatic.
Get the facts, or the facts will get you. And when you get them, get them right, or they will get you wrong.” ― Thomas Fuller
User avatar
Okisites
 
Posts: 1286 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: April 20th, 2012, 7:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Nature

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#18  Postby TheCrowSword » April 26th, 2012, 11:09 am

I'm not sure I understood what you said, please do disregard anything I say if this is not what you meant. (allow me to state it anyway just in case, somebody would have an opinion that differs) If you meant that rape victims who do not immediately pursue the police do not deserve an abortion.

I mind you that being raped is a mental scar that can be incredibly frightful, it is an inhuman act that takes all power away from another human, and makes sure it will be hard for them to ever regain it. Many (not most not all)rape victims are unable to even tell people of what has happened to them simply because it was such a frightening experience they are afraid to be punished (this is a common tendency if you are subjected to it more than once and people disbelieve you). these people would not even dare seek the police, they would never think anything positive (nor be able to) about the parasites slowly tearing them down inside their very own bodies are you saying that they should no be allowed an abortion?

Now let's move away from that.

There are in fact several other situations were an abortion should still be allowed, a handicaped child should always be a consideration yes sure they could live, but another healthy child could also take its place and lead an even more happy life.

That's an obvious one. Now there is the more difficult question about how some families are entitled to get an abortion. We are not talking about your body here, it is not you who is going to care for this child you would not want for 9 months. It's not you who would have to suffer from the experience of giving birth to an unwanted child, to burden yourself with the responsibilities of being a parent(while not wanting it).

Yes Abortion might as well be considered murder. Now that we consider it for what it is, now is to ask the question of who else we murder.

We murder in war terrorists figureheads that other people look up to, we do not think twice about this. We justify murder with murder. Just because one is a murder does not justify you murdering. In the end a many murderess still have sanity as well as people who believe and love them.

We also murder criminals (war criminals especially because that defy even laws on execution)

We also murder people simply by not helping them, plenty of people could have been saved with your help (in more ways than you or I could think of) you would take on this guilt no matter what. Saying that you can not sacrifice yourself for them would be like a mother wanting an abortion not wanting to use time resources and put strain on herself through pregnancy. (saying that it's killing of the mother even if you do not consider the other statement as killing is wrong, simply because that the child would not sustain itself without the mother. (still being a part of her option, ending up as a heavily handicapped child is almost the same, since they cannot sustain themselves either they either need help from the government or the mother))

Do you think this is okay? if you do your a hypocrite if not well you would be justified to have your own opinion on the matter

There are also several other cases of believe in which your logic is justified.

Examples.

1) If you somehow think that people who think differently are not entitled to the right of a human

2) If you think that it is entirely different with people being from different countries, and that it makes them worth less. (basically making you somewhat close to what racist is)

3) Remember animal? we kill to eat do we not? others are the same as we see animals killing our own kin is different indeed.

4) You don't give a ****

5) You don't really care what I say.


Please mind that much of this, is lacking backing and would be something I would need to give separately. Also do note that after reading this you would still most likely have no real clue as to what my own opinion is. I'm just stating a few things that are in some ways quite flawed (I do agree) but nice to chew on.
TheCrowSword
 
Posts: 48 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: April 11th, 2012, 11:09 am

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#19  Postby Scott » April 26th, 2012, 12:02 pm

Newme, I fear your post is off-topic. This topic is not about abortions at 12-weeks. This topic is about either an abortion at 1 week or an abortion 5-days past the due date. Almost everyone supports the former being legal and the latter being illegal. None of your comments seem to apply. For instance, you speak of a vacuum being used and limbs being ripped apart, but since we are talking about a women getting an abortion 1-week after conception that does not make sense since there is no limbs and that is not how abortions are performed at that time. I'm no expert but I think 1-week abortions are performed chemically, i.e. by taking a pill -- not the morning after pill but an abortion-inducing pill.

***

Okisites, I personally wouldn't want a rape victim to be denied abortion simply because she didn't go to the police quick enough for the reasons pointed out by TheCrowSword. However, I am willing to agree to disagree on that point because you do agree that you want it to be legal for the woman to get an abortion if she does go to the police immediately. That is enough to support my conclusion that abortion is not as diametrically divisive as often thought because as we have seen so far almost everyone wants certain kinds of abortion to be legal and certain kind of abortions to be illegal; we just all vary moderately on the gray areas in-between an abortion at one week by the incestuous rape victim and the abortion at 5-days-past-due by the healthy, wealthy woman.
Online Philosophy Club - Please tell me how to improve this website!

Check it out: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often thought?
User avatar
Scott
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4197 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Diogenes the Cynic

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#20  Postby Misty » April 26th, 2012, 2:29 pm

I think the teenager should make the decision whether she wants to abort or not.

I think the wealthy woman should make her own decision as well.

True morality is self imposed.

Society needs better education for all in the areas of sexuality, reproduction and responsibility. Sexuality and reproduction are personal. Being a victim of a sexual crime is also personal and should be handled that way. Privately.

Abortion should never be used as a birth control 'method'. But there again, education is the key, I think.

While I do believe life is conception to death (possibility of normal life span) I do not think government has the right to make such personal agonizing decisions for the individual who has to experience the decision.

My own dream is to get to the point of building a society where these decisions are moot because mankind has evolved beyond humans perpetrating crimes on fellow humans. I know, I know, it is a dream!
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
User avatar
Misty
Contributor
 
Posts: 5933 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: August 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#21  Postby TheCrowSword » April 26th, 2012, 2:49 pm

Misty wrote:I think the teenager should make the decision whether she wants to abort or not.

I think the wealthy woman should make her own decision as well.

True morality is self imposed.

Society needs better education for all in the areas of sexuality, reproduction and responsibility. Sexuality and reproduction are personal. Being a victim of a sexual crime is also personal and should be handled that way. Privately.

Abortion should never be used as a birth control 'method'. But there again, education is the key, I think.

While I do believe life is conception to death (possibility of normal life span) I do not think government has the right to make such personal agonizing decisions for the individual who has to experience the decision.

My own dream is to get to the point of building a society where these decisions are moot because mankind has evolved beyond humans perpetrating crimes on fellow humans. I know, I know, it is a dream!


The reason the government exist is to exert force on humans, it is there to control us, but in doing so it also assures us that we will not be killed by another government (and their population).

and by the way, your dream is death and annihilation of the human race. Because that which makes us commit these crimes is also what allows our survival.
TheCrowSword
 
Posts: 48 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: April 11th, 2012, 11:09 am

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#22  Postby Misty » April 26th, 2012, 3:11 pm

HELP!!

I am sorry, as I misread about the wealthy woman. I thought it meant 5 days past due date of menstrual cycle, not the due date of birth. So how can I correct this on the survey? I do not think she should abort.

-- Updated Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:14 pm to add the following --

TheCrowSword wrote:
Misty wrote:I think the teenager should make the decision whether she wants to abort or not.

I think the wealthy woman should make her own decision as well.

True morality is self imposed.

Society needs better education for all in the areas of sexuality, reproduction and responsibility. Sexuality and reproduction are personal. Being a victim of a sexual crime is also personal and should be handled that way. Privately.

Abortion should never be used as a birth control 'method'. But there again, education is the key, I think.

While I do believe life is conception to death (possibility of normal life span) I do not think government has the right to make such personal agonizing decisions for the individual who has to experience the decision.

My own dream is to get to the point of building a society where these decisions are moot because mankind has evolved beyond humans perpetrating crimes on fellow humans. I know, I know, it is a dream!


The reason the government exist is to exert force on humans, it is there to control us, but in doing so it also assures us that we will not be killed by another government (and their population).

and by the way, your dream is death and annihilation of the human race. Because that which makes us commit these crimes is also what allows our survival.


I corrected a part of my post. Now I do not understand your reasoning for your last sentence. Could you explain?
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
User avatar
Misty
Contributor
 
Posts: 5933 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: August 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#23  Postby TheCrowSword » April 26th, 2012, 3:43 pm

Misty wrote:HELP!!

I am sorry, as I misread about the wealthy woman. I thought it meant 5 days past due date of menstrual cycle, not the due date of birth. So how can I correct this on the survey? I do not think she should abort.

-- Updated Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:14 pm to add the following --

TheCrowSword wrote:
Misty wrote:I think the teenager should make the decision whether she wants to abort or not.

I think the wealthy woman should make her own decision as well.

True morality is self imposed.

Society needs better education for all in the areas of sexuality, reproduction and responsibility. Sexuality and reproduction are personal. Being a victim of a sexual crime is also personal and should be handled that way. Privately.

Abortion should never be used as a birth control 'method'. But there again, education is the key, I think.

While I do believe life is conception to death (possibility of normal life span) I do not think government has the right to make such personal agonizing decisions for the individual who has to experience the decision.

My own dream is to get to the point of building a society where these decisions are moot because mankind has evolved beyond humans perpetrating crimes on fellow humans. I know, I know, it is a dream!


The reason the government exist is to exert force on humans, it is there to control us, but in doing so it also assures us that we will not be killed by another government (and their population).

and by the way, your dream is death and annihilation of the human race. Because that which makes us commit these crimes is also what allows our survival.


I corrected a part of my post. Now I do not understand your reasoning for your last sentence. Could you explain?


I'm starting to feel bad for Scott, everyone seems to misunderstand his question xD (oh well not everyone, but it seems many do)

and what I meant with that is a longer discussion, in short greed makes many things happen for humans but in the end it is also what keeps us alive and running :p
TheCrowSword
 
Posts: 48 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: April 11th, 2012, 11:09 am

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#24  Postby Scott » April 26th, 2012, 8:49 pm

(Upon request of a few people I edited the poll to allow for vote changing but in doing so I accidentally caused all the votes to be deleted which is an automatic event to prevent poll tampering, so everyone who already voted will have to vote again. Sorry.) Nonetheless, despite the misunderstandings that have been cleared up, I think there is near unanimous agreement on these two extremes.
Online Philosophy Club - Please tell me how to improve this website!

Check it out: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often thought?
User avatar
Scott
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4197 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Diogenes the Cynic

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#25  Postby Misty » April 27th, 2012, 10:17 am

TheCrowSword wrote:
Misty wrote:HELP!!

I am sorry, as I misread about the wealthy woman. I thought it meant 5 days past due date of menstrual cycle, not the due date of birth. So how can I correct this on the survey? I do not think she should abort.

-- Updated Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:14 pm to add the following --

TheCrowSword wrote:
Misty wrote:I think the teenager should make the decision whether she wants to abort or not.

I think the wealthy woman should make her own decision as well.

True morality is self imposed.

Society needs better education for all in the areas of sexuality, reproduction and responsibility. Sexuality and reproduction are personal. Being a victim of a sexual crime is also personal and should be handled that way. Privately.

Abortion should never be used as a birth control 'method'. But there again, education is the key, I think.

While I do believe life is conception to death (possibility of normal life span) I do not think government has the right to make such personal agonizing decisions for the individual who has to experience the decision.

My own dream is to get to the point of building a society where these decisions are moot because mankind has evolved beyond humans perpetrating crimes on fellow humans. I know, I know, it is a dream!


The reason the government exist is to exert force on humans, it is there to control us, but in doing so it also assures us that we will not be killed by another government (and their population).

and by the way, your dream is death and annihilation of the human race. Because that which makes us commit these crimes is also what allows our survival.


I corrected a part of my post. Now I do not understand your reasoning for your last sentence. Could you explain?


I'm starting to feel bad for Scott, everyone seems to misunderstand his question xD (oh well not everyone, but it seems many do)

and what I meant with that is a longer discussion, in short greed makes many things happen for humans but in the end it is also what keeps us alive and running :p




Is the longer discussion applicable to this topic? I would like to pursue it What did I say in my post that insinuated
greed? How does greed generate good and bad?
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
User avatar
Misty
Contributor
 
Posts: 5933 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: August 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#26  Postby TheCrowSword » April 28th, 2012, 3:38 am

@Misty you could try starting a new thread on the question of greed, and if there is anything good on it. (if there isn't such a thread already)

But yes irrelevant to the topic, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to discuss that subject.
TheCrowSword
 
Posts: 48 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: April 11th, 2012, 11:09 am

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#27  Postby Misty » April 28th, 2012, 7:39 am

TheCrowSword wrote:@Misty you could try starting a new thread on the question of greed, and if there is anything good on it. (if there isn't such a thread already)

But yes irrelevant to the topic, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to discuss that subject.


OK, I will try to start a topic on greed, however, please tell me where in my original post did I insinuate greed?
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
User avatar
Misty
Contributor
 
Posts: 5933 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: August 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#28  Postby TheCrowSword » April 28th, 2012, 7:49 am

Misty wrote:Society needs better education for all in the areas of sexuality, reproduction and responsibility. Sexuality and reproduction are personal. Being a victim of a sexual crime is also personal and should be handled that way. Privately.


Misty wrote:My own dream is to get to the point of building a society where these decisions are moot because mankind has evolved beyond humans perpetrating crimes on fellow humans. I know, I know, it is a dream!



This can all be connected to greed.
TheCrowSword
 
Posts: 48 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: April 11th, 2012, 11:09 am

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#29  Postby Misty » April 28th, 2012, 7:57 am

TheCrowSword wrote:
Misty wrote:Society needs better education for all in the areas of sexuality, reproduction and responsibility. Sexuality and reproduction are personal. Being a victim of a sexual crime is also personal and should be handled that way. Privately.


Misty wrote:My own dream is to get to the point of building a society where these decisions are moot because mankind has evolved beyond humans perpetrating crimes on fellow humans. I know, I know, it is a dream!


This can all be connected to greed.


How?

New thread on greed started on forum ethics and morality.

-- Updated Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:07 am to add the following --

While I do think abortion is ending the life of a person in it's earliest development, I think the life of children
or women who are found pregnant in any situation that has been forced upon them, should be that person's decision
whether to abort or not. There are other situations that may also merit abortions. War, children who cannot make
their own decision, severely mentally handicapped females, are just a few.

-- Updated Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:06 am to add the following --

Only a female can know how it feels to be in a position of degredation when violated by rape/pregnancy. Being pregnant is hard enough when one thinks they are in love and are loved by the one who impregnates. All females do not have the same
fortitude to always select to carry an unwanted pregnancy, and should not be further violated to do so.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
User avatar
Misty
Contributor
 
Posts: 5933 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: August 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#30  Postby TheCrowSword » April 28th, 2012, 12:37 pm

Misty wrote:
TheCrowSword wrote:
Misty wrote:Society needs better education for all in the areas of sexuality, reproduction and responsibility. Sexuality and reproduction are personal. Being a victim of a sexual crime is also personal and should be handled that way. Privately.


Misty wrote:My own dream is to get to the point of building a society where these decisions are moot because mankind has evolved beyond humans perpetrating crimes on fellow humans. I know, I know, it is a dream!


This can all be connected to greed.


How?

New thread on greed started on forum ethics and morality.

-- Updated Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:07 am to add the following --

While I do think abortion is ending the life of a person in it's earliest development, I think the life of children
or women who are found pregnant in any situation that has been forced upon them, should be that person's decision
whether to abort or not. There are other situations that may also merit abortions. War, children who cannot make
their own decision, severely mentally handicapped females, are just a few.

-- Updated Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:06 am to add the following --

Only a female can know how it feels to be in a position of degredation when violated by rape/pregnancy. Being pregnant is hard enough when one thinks they are in love and are loved by the one who impregnates. All females do not have the same
fortitude to always select to carry an unwanted pregnancy, and should not be further violated to do so.



Yes indeed I do agree on most of that, except that it is very few females that actually would know how it is to be in a position as a victim of a violent situation. (although you do not specify it as such, people could easily get the feeling towards)

I'll respond to the question on greed another day, I'm simply out of time to respond on such a complex problem (complex only because people tend to view it differently)
TheCrowSword
 
Posts: 48 (View: All / In topic)

Joined: April 11th, 2012, 11:09 am

PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy of Politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dachshund and 3 guests

Philosophy Trophies

Most Active Members
by posts made in lasts 30 days

Avatar Member Name Recent Posts
Greta 162
Fooloso4 116
Renee 107
Ormond 97
Felix 90

Last updated January 6, 2017, 6:28 pm EST

Most Active Book of the Month Participants
by book of the month posts

Avatar Member Name BOTM Posts
Scott 147
Spectrum 23
Belinda 23
whitetrshsoldier 20
Josefina1110 19
Last updated January 6, 2017, 6:28 pm EST