Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often thought?

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With which statement do you agree?

I want it to be illegal for a very poor teenager who was impregnated from being raped by an immediate family member to get an abortion even in the first week of pregnancy even if the doctors can and did detect the baby has severe genetic disorders and that the pregnancy if taken to term would have complications greatly risking the life of both the mother and would-be baby.
7
11%
I want it to be legal for a wealthy woman who is 5 days past her due date (of birth) to get an abortion even though doctors are sure that the healthy baby would be delivered safely and relatively easily otherwise and even though many safe, healthy, loving families are willing to adopt the would-be newborn immediately and even pay the woman significantly for that.
11
18%
I do not agree fully with either one of the above statements.
44
71%
 
Total votes : 62

Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#61  Postby Leonodas » March 3rd, 2013, 4:11 pm

Should it be legal to abort a baby in the first trimester? Should it be legal to abort a baby in the second? The third? What about as the baby is coming out? Why not kill it then? What difference would it make between the moment of conception and the cutting of the umbilical cord? After all, it is still a "parasite" of it's mother.

Why not kill the child after a few days? The parents don't want it anyway. Why not after two years? After all, can a child of that age effectively reason?

Where is the line? More than that, what defines what a human being is or is not?

Way back when, we did not consider slaves human -- they were subhuman. So we worked them to death, beat them, separated their families. We see the fallacy of our ways now, but what of the slaves around the world now?

The Nazis did not consider the Poles, the Slavs, the Jews, the Romani and the homosexuals to be human -- they were, in fact, subhuman. So they killed them, because they were unwanted and after all it was the choice of the "Mother" state to do so.

If we're going to go to extremes, let's actually go all the way. Are the babies in the wombs, the unborn, human?

Again, the line? Where is the line?
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though



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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#62  Postby FreeSpeech » August 15th, 2013, 6:22 pm

Choose option A --> Hyper-conservative christian

Choose option B --> WTF

Choose option C --> I'm not alone! This wasn't idiocracy after all!

(What if you posted more reasonable choices rather than extreme A, extreme B and the middle point?)
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#63  Postby Leonodas » August 15th, 2013, 6:37 pm

FreeSpeech wrote:Choose option A --> Hyper-conservative christian

Choose option B --> WTF

Choose option C --> I'm not alone! This wasn't idiocracy after all!

(What if you posted more reasonable choices rather than extreme A, extreme B and the middle point?)


Why does Option A = "hyper conservative christian"? That's a sweeping generalization, and I'm really, really sick of seeing it brought up.


Anyway, you must have missed the point if you want less extreme options, at which point it would be become another run-of-the-mill sociopolitical debate thread (God knows we have enough of those on here). The extremes are there because few people except the ones with the most conviction would choose them; it's a way for us all to see that we have more middle ground and therefore more in-common on the abortion argument than we'd originally think (or not).
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#64  Postby Mayanka » August 16th, 2013, 3:39 am

I'd just like to add two instances that happened some years ago in India and in Ireland.

In India the law prohibits abortion after a certain period of gestation has passed, about 20 weeks to be specific. The foetus then comes in possession of rights. Now there was a case some years ago where doctors found extreme mental and physical deformities in the foetus after the 20 weeks had passed. The woman called for an abortion stating that she did not want to give birth to a child who would only have difficulties to face in life, possibly a very short life, and moved the court for that. The case gathered quite a bit of publicity. Well, the woman ultimately suffered a miscarriage so the case faded out, but the issue remained in focus for quite some time. Some felt the baby should have been allowed to be born, since given the medical advancement there could still be a chance it would lead a normal life. The woman could give it up for adoption if she did not want it then. Some felt it better to end the woman and the child's misery.

In Irelan abortion used to be illegal under all cases until a woman died of complications which demanded the removal of the foetus, which the doctors refused to do in fear of the law. To quote it was "because after a miscarriage had been diagnosed, she was denied an abortion because the fetus's heart was still beating".

While this is a very obvious case where abortion should have been permitted, we could try looking at similar cases from a different level by considering the foetus an entity.

The parents conceived the child of their own will, and after it has gained enough mass to have a chance of existing, the parent's right to end it's life can be considered null. The mother's conditions can thought of as independent of the foetus'. If the mother starts having complications later in her pregnancy because of drinking, drugs, some illness, whatsoever, that is to be borne by the mother and not the child inside of her. If the child can exist, even if the mother is unable to live through the birth, is that immoral, selfish, wrong?
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#65  Postby Newme » August 16th, 2013, 7:41 pm

If a mother's life is at risk by continuing a pregnancy, then obviously abortion is logical, since if she dies, so does the baby.

However, medical problems make up such a tiny percentage of abortions - about 6%. 1% are due to rape.

93% of abortion murders are because the woman CHOSE to have irresponsible sex and is now forcing her baby to pay for her mistake by death - often a torcherous death. By 8 weeks gestation, all body systems are intact, so by the time abortion murders are performed, the child (developing human) can feel his or her body being ripped apart.
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#66  Postby Thinking critical » August 17th, 2013, 12:02 am

First at Foremost Abortion should not be considered as a contraceptive, people who have sex know the potential consequences, due to the uncertainty factor of not knowing at exactly what age the foetus is able to feel pain, I know it's impossible for them to feel pain prior to 6 weeks, two things need to be considered. Abortion after 6 weeks should only be for extreme cases where severe medical complications are probable. For un-planned pregnancies the abortion must be carried out before 6 weeks and every single case MUST meet a strict criteria that considers every aspect of the parties considered before making a decision.
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#67  Postby eyesofastranger » November 22nd, 2014, 9:57 am

Why isn't the baby a person 1 minute earlier when it is inside it's mother but ready to be born safely? What is it that makes it person?


Great Scott is asking the most difficult philosophical questions humans face. I don't have a vote. Pondered at length personally. I turn to the universe and science for my answer. The pituitary gland develops on day 49. this important thing regulates stress, growth, reproduction and lactation. As we herd cats with our connection to our universe it is my belief day 49 is the day you cease being a pile of cells in potential and begin life. Rape is a deep often misunderstood variable. Most rapes end in a morning text that says, sorry are we still friends. Knife in the teeth through the bedroom window can happen. Sorry bout your luck is my response. A life is a life. I once was hit T-bone and wrote off a new car, got 22k to pay off a loan of 25k. Sometimes life hits you. I am personally an unwanted child. Leave me alone I'll figure it out for myself. Mom got taken down by Lou Gehrig's and dad certainly didn't want to raise a kid so I got to business and did it myself. I have little room for whiners as a result. Possible my outlook is a bit too stern as a result. I'm almost always pro life. Before day 49???? I'm on the edge
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#68  Postby Londoner » November 22nd, 2014, 1:09 pm

I think it is questionable to have framed the question around what should be legal/illegal.

We can hold a position that we think something is morally wrong, without claiming that we know this for an objective fact, such that we claim the right to impose our view over others.

The poll could simply have appealed to common feelings. 'Don't you feel sad for that baby?' etc. This approach allows for the possibility of reasonable disagreement. To bring in the law indicates that one attitude is wrong, it indicates that we expect there is a correct answer; that there is some sort of objective evidence than can show one position is better than another. That is, in itself, a bold philosophical claim.

(Of course, even for the morally certain, any particular example may be open to question, but that is not because they are open minded, but because they will have other moral views in addition to their view on abortion which need to be reconciled.)

To put it another way; The Morality of Abortion - is it a matter of feeling or a matter of fact? If you think it is the second you are as dogmatic as anyone else in the battle, you just differ about the dogma.

(I would suggest that the correct philosophical response to a poll in which two questions start 'I want...' and the last 'I do not fully agree..' is that to report one is in the emotional condition of 'wanting' is not to make an argument, so there is nothing to agree or disagree with.)
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#69  Postby Wilson » November 23rd, 2014, 4:01 am

I have to say that the wording of the poll was poor. For many, I'm sure, option B read initially as meaning four days after her period was due, rather than when she was ready to deliver a full-term baby.

For me, and I suspect for most people who are not guided blindly by their religion, it comes down to whether we empathize with the fetus. In other words, do we feel that a one-month old fetus has human qualities? Not whether it is technically a human being, which it obviously is, but whether it is capable of even rudimentary thought or pain. And there's an emotional aspect to it related to whether the fetus looks like a baby, which of course early on it doesn't, and as the mother nears term, it does. On the other hand, most of us also consider the effect of having an unwanted child on the woman involved. We are sympathetic to her, if we are capable of sympathy. There's no absolute right or wrong answer as to the morality of this (and other issues), except in each individual. For me, anyone should be allowed to get an abortion through the first two trimesters (six months) but not past that - because the fetus looks too damn much like a baby at that point, and can probably feel pain.
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#70  Postby Bligh » December 23rd, 2014, 6:07 pm

It seems that trying to discuss two extremes is not very interesting. What is your real question? B
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#71  Postby Greta » December 24th, 2014, 12:21 am

Both options are inhumane. Option A is primitive-minded and grounded on superstition.

As a side issue which doesn't influence my belief that option A is wrong-headed, it's also been observed that a generation after abortion laws are relaxed crime rates significantly drop. It stands to reason. Unwanted children become wards of the state unless foster care is found, and those unfortunates are many times more likely to go to prison than those raised in families. Is it better not to be born, or is it better to be born into a hostile, unloving environment that leaves enough scars for extreme anti social behaviour, so often culminating in a life of sexual slavery in prison?

With option 2 I'm leaning towards Peter Singer's approach; the first concern should be capacity to suffer.

At 27-30 weeks the baby's nervous system is capable of controlling some body functions. Perhaps at that stage a foetus has some tiny capacity for suffering at that stage but not even close to the suffering of many animals with more developed nervous systems. In the following weeks at some stage a foetus would appear to be capable of suffering enough to warrant protection. It should be noted that a newborn human baby's awareness is still far less than that of the higher order mammals that we routinely torture and kill.

Kingkool makes a fair point early in the thread that, while a foetus is inside the mother, it's the mother's call. However, I would not argue with laws preventing such very late term abortions on the basis of the above.

Aside from these uncertain experiential aspects, broader society also has a stake, having contributed money, time, resources and energy to the health of mother and child throughout gestation with the expectation of producing a new "productive unit" (to call a spade, a spade). A very late abortion is wasteful to society. The mother would have generally had plenty of time to decide, and there is a case to provide additional disincentive for such irresponsibility.
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#72  Postby Newme » December 28th, 2014, 11:55 am

Londoner wrote:I think it is questionable to have framed the question around what should be legal/illegal.

Agreed, because there are countless government actions/laws that are immoral/unethical.

To put it another way; The Morality of Abortion - is it a matter of feeling or a matter of fact? If you think it is the second you are as dogmatic as anyone else in the battle, you just differ about the dogma.

I don't think you can completely detach emotion in morality. You can logically argue the most horrific genocides, but they are immoral. During surgery, amputation is performed, ideally with limited emotion - because the emotional empathy came when anesthesia was administered. However, these children (developing human beings) being killed/aborted by having their bodies ripped apart in abortion are not given anesthesia. Most people refuse to see the ugly reality of HOW the killing of these children are performed. And the children can't exactly get on the 9:00 news to inform them.

Abortion is stopping a heart beat. Often, abortions are done after 8 weeks gestation when all body systems (including nervous system) are intact, and after the child can FEEL his/her body being ripped apart.
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#73  Postby Lucylu » January 6th, 2015, 5:14 pm

Newme wrote:During surgery, amputation is performed, ideally with limited emotion - because the emotional empathy came when anesthesia was administered. However, these children (developing human beings) being killed/aborted by having their bodies ripped apart in abortion are not given anesthesia.


May I ask, would you agree with abortion then, if the embryo or foetus (or even baby) were given an anaesthetic?

If you do want abortion to be banned or non existent, do you then condone the much more dangerous (for mother and child) back street abortions (as was the case before they were legalised)?

Or do you honestly believe that there is no such thing as ignorance or human error or youthful exuberance?

It just seems that to judge abortion is to judge human beings, as if they should be perfect? It isn't wanted, obviously, but it is necessary in the real world. Its better for it to be done by licensed doctors than for women to be sticking knitting needles or wire coat hangers in to themselves and dying of infections and bleeding (as used to be the case).
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#74  Postby Leonodas » January 17th, 2015, 12:38 pm

I read a statistic somewhere that around 93% of abortions are not medically-related in nature. That is, it is purely the mother's choice and has nothing to do with risk of the mother or the child. Don't quote me on it though.

That may not make an impact on the argument, but I thought it might be worth mentioning of someone else could dig that up somewhere.
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Re: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often though

Post Number:#75  Postby Lucylu » January 17th, 2015, 2:52 pm

I cant quite see the benefit of taking two extremes, and only those extremes, as a point of debate. We may as well ask who likes hot weather and who likes cold. Obviously those who would fit in to those opposites would be few and the vast majority will fall somewhere in between. The same could be said of most issues relating to the freedom of choice. Thankfully, the majority are temperate.

The real question is where to draw the line within the middle ground. In this case, it would seem to fall a the point at which the baby is absolutely dependent on the mother or whether they could survive outside the womb, and also what pain the foetus may experience.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell
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