Gun Control and Mass Murder

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by UniversalAlien »

For your benefit Quotidian I did some more research and came up with an interesting FACT. The State of Vermont {USA} has the second to the lowest homicide rate by gun of all 50 US states. The rate is .48 per 100,000. And guess what?
Vermont has very few gun control laws. Gun dealers are required to keep a record of all handgun sales. It is illegal to carry a gun on school property or in a courthouse. State law preempts local governments from regulating the possession, ownership, transfer, carrying, registration or licensing of firearms. The term "Vermont Carry" is widely used by gun rights advocates to refer to allowing citizens to carry a firearm concealed or openly without any sort of permit requirement, however this term is being replaced by the term "Constitutional Carry". Vermont law does not distinguish between residents and non-residents of the state; both have the same right to carry while in Vermont. The Vermont Constitution of 1777, dating well before the Bill of Rights to a time when Vermont was an independent republic, guarantees certain freedoms and rights to the citizens: "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State – and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power."
Does this bother you Quotidian? Does this indicate the gun rights advocates are right after all? Or are the people of Vermont an alien race not effected by human stupidity? And when you give statistics used by the blatantly anti-gun Brady group about homicide rates by so called 'high income countries', does that consider the income and area where the homicides are taking place in the US - does it distinguish between inner city ghetto environments rampant with street gangs such as In LA or Chicago and compare those areas with the more affluent parts of the US?
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Quotidian
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Quotidian »

Well, I am 'blatantly anti-gun' also. And blatantly 'pro-reason'. I support all those who wish to reduce gun ownership in the USA. (I have family there.)

At the end of the day, if you're representing the right to own guns, then you're the one with the weapon. Us 'blatantly anti-gun' types are only armed with reason. If we can't convince the gun enthusiasts to put down their weapons, using reason, then they will win the argument, because they are armed, and we are not. It is not, however, a victory for reason, but for fear, and for a much higher likelihood of death and injury. This seems to have been what has happened in the USA, which is why it has the highest rate of death and injury by gunfire in the developed world. The fact that you continue to obfuscate and rationalize this obvious fact is exactly why the nation has this predicament. If it is not obvious to you, there is no use discussing it.
'For there are many here among us who think that life is but a joke' ~ Dylan
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Grecorivera5150
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Grecorivera5150 »

This is from a post of a photo found on Facebook today. I have not researched all the information myself but I found the information compelling none the less.


A LITTLE GUN HISTORY In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million. You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens. Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late! The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson. With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'. During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED! If you value your freedom, please spread this antigun-control message to all of your friends. SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN! SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE. SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!! IT'S A NO BRAINER! DON'T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET. Spread the word everywhere you can that you are a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment!

It's time to speak loud before they try to silence and disarm us. You're not imagining it, history shows that governments always manipulate tragedies to attempt to disarm the people~
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Naughtorious
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Naughtorious »

Quotidian wrote: If it is not obvious to you, there is no use discussing it.
Hey. You're wrong. Your personal thinking doesn't stack up to our practical world. You live in a fantasy world where things can be fixed and everyone gets together to sing Kumbayah. This isn't that world. There is chaos. There are tragedies. There are conflicts. There are times we are hopeless. There are times we have nothing. You live in an imperfect world with ideas set forth on a perfect world that will never exist outside of your copious mind's spiritual journey. You need to stop looking inward and focus on what is outward. There are statistics that clearly show us places where criminal activity is low and gun activity is off the charts.

It isn't the guns that kill people. It's the people. If you cannot see that what you want from humanity is the same reason why people die from guns when they do not have the ability to defend themselves in this world where power beats vulnerability... Then you are too far down that rabbit hole to realize vulnerability is the problem. If we can protect ourselves. Less violence would occur. Violence only occurs based on vulnerability. Violence comes with weakness. If we have the power to protect ourselves. The violence would cease and so will your opaque arguments.
Those who don't want to die are valueless lies; and those who don't mind death are valuable assets.
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Quotidian
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Quotidian »

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
These were people 'rounded up' by authoritarian governments including communist Russia, the Nazis, the Turks, and the murderous regime of Pol Pot. How is this relevant to the large-scale civil violence we now see in the USA?.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property.
This is a demonstrable falsehood. For every actual criminal shot by 'an honest citizen' in an act of legitimate self-defense, there are hundreds more shootings - accidental, suicidal, and criminal - in which there are innocent victims. The overall cost far outweighs any possible benefit from vigilante action against criminal assault.

This rhetoric is typical of the gun lobbyist's disregard for empirical facts and appeals to emotion. It all relies on whipping up fear - fear of strangers, fear of government, ultimately fear of each other - which actually results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries.

And this is presented as 'patriotism' and 'love of country'.

Scary.
'For there are many here among us who think that life is but a joke' ~ Dylan
Maia
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Maia »

Grecorivera5150 wrote:This is from a post of a photo found on Facebook today. I have not researched all the information myself but I found the information compelling none the less.


A LITTLE GUN HISTORY In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million. You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens. Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late! The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson. With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'. During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED! If you value your freedom, please spread this antigun-control message to all of your friends. SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN! SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE. SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!! IT'S A NO BRAINER! DON'T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET. Spread the word everywhere you can that you are a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment!

It's time to speak loud before they try to silence and disarm us. You're not imagining it, history shows that governments always manipulate tragedies to attempt to disarm the people~
How many people have the UK rounded up and done that to? Yet we have gun control laws too, and are an infinitely more peaceful and better society for it.

Why can't you understand that the gun lobby are manipulating you?
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Naughtorious
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Naughtorious »

Maia wrote:
Why can't you understand that the gun lobby are manipulating you?
Why can't you understand anti-gun laws are far more consequential than pro-gun laws? The statistics are there where everybody can make a proper conclusion. Your irrational fear and misunderstanding of a human's reaction towards a society with gun-bearing citizens is what the problem here is. The actual scenario is a lot better than what you imagine.
Those who don't want to die are valueless lies; and those who don't mind death are valuable assets.
Maia
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Maia »

Naughtorious wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Why can't you understand anti-gun laws are far more consequential than pro-gun laws? The statistics are there where everybody can make a proper conclusion. Your irrational fear and misunderstanding of a human's reaction towards a society with gun-bearing citizens is what the problem here is. The actual scenario is a lot better than what you imagine.
What I know is that Americans are 32 times more likely to be gunned down and killed than British people are. That makes us better off, I would say.
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Naughtorious
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Naughtorious »

Maia wrote:
What I know is that Americans are 32 times more likely to be gunned down and killed than British people are. That makes us better off, I would say.
You also have to remember. The U.S has terrible gun control laws. Our education systems are laughable. Our society is swimming in a pool of fear, insecurities, lust, lies and irresponsible behavior patterns. Especially in our political and parental area. This plays a serious factor in a person as they hold that gun in their hands.

This will take time to progress.
Those who don't want to die are valueless lies; and those who don't mind death are valuable assets.
Maia
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Maia »

Naughtorious wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


You also have to remember. The U.S has terrible gun control laws. Our education systems are laughable. Our society is swimming in a pool of fear, insecurities, lust, lies and irresponsible behavior patterns. Especially in our political and parental area. This plays a serious factor in a person as they hold that gun in their hands.
That fear and paranoia is stoked by the very people responsible for selling guns to you.
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Grecorivera5150
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Grecorivera5150 »

Quotidian wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


These were people 'rounded up' by authoritarian governments including communist Russia, the Nazis, the Turks, and the murderous regime of Pol Pot. How is this relevant to the large-scale civil violence we now see in the USA?.


Have you followed the law in the USA in the last few years? The NDAA, the Federal Restricted Buildings and Grounds Improvement Act , SOPA & PIPA, the bail outs of the banks, going to war by the order of the president based on a united nations mandate used to legitimize his authorization without getting the consent of the congress who represent the people. It is very easy to see history completely repeat itself as another empire implodes. If the leadership of the countries make some horrible decisions that the majority of the people of the country did not agree with as of now we would hard pressed to try and remove a belligerent regime bent on control and completely abusing the constitution in order to foster their controls. At the end of the day when the chaos hits do you want to have real options or do you want to be beaten down into submission. I have not settled on a comfort zone. I just think this is a compelling discussion. Their may be exigencies that mandate choosing a moral direction that is looming on the horizons now.




(Nested quote removed.)


This is a demonstrable falsehood. For every actual criminal shot by 'an honest citizen' in an act of legitimate self-defense, there are hundreds more shootings - accidental, suicidal, and criminal - in which there are innocent victims. The overall cost far outweighs any possible benefit from vigilante action against criminal assault.

This rhetoric is typical of the gun lobbyist's disregard for empirical facts and appeals to emotion. It all relies on whipping up fear - fear of strangers, fear of government, ultimately fear of each other - which actually results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries.

And this is presented as 'patriotism' and 'love of country'.

Scary.

Its also demonstrably true. It is the ying and yang of it and at the end of the day you believe what gets you through the day. Those who say they are patriots are specifically considering themselves aligned with those who actually revolted against Britain. Real patriots who battled tyranny to attain liberty. This does not mean a patriot for the love country. These are patriots out of the fear of country. The government was meant to be minimal and it has grown into a ravenous leviathan much like the beast of king Georges empire.
Last edited by Grecorivera5150 on December 18th, 2012, 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Naughtorious
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Naughtorious »

Maia wrote:
That fear and paranoia is stoked by the very people responsible for selling guns to you.
You, Quotidian and other magical thinkers oppose gun laws. I wonder why...? That fear and paranoia does not come from those who sell guns. It comes from your irrational thoughts for what would happen if a society was a place where people were carrying guns around. Your fear is poison. The fear people will have when citizens carry guns is a healthy fear that would cancel out 99% of our aggressive, contemptible and animalistic motives. The same way the bully doesn't pick on someone that is bigger than him or even his own size.

Vulnerability is the problem. Vulcan's nature is the answer.
Those who don't want to die are valueless lies; and those who don't mind death are valuable assets.
Maia
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Maia »

Naughtorious wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


You, Quotidian and other magical thinkers oppose gun laws. I wonder why...? That fear and paranoia does not come from those who sell guns. It comes from your irrational thoughts for what would happen if a society was a place where people were carrying guns around. Your fear is poison. The fear people will have when citizens carry guns is a healthy fear that would cancel out 99% of our aggressive, contemptible and animalistic motives. The same way the bully doesn't pick on someone that is bigger than him or even his own size.

Vulnerability is the problem. Vulcan's nature is the answer.
I don't oppose gun laws, I fully support gun laws. I'm not a magical thinker, either.

If you think a society where everyone has to be armed is a good idea, then you're in luck, because that's where you're heading. Personally, I think a society where no one has to be armed is a much better idea.
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Naughtorious
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Naughtorious »

Maia wrote: Personally, I think a society where no one has to be armed is a much better idea.
Why is it a better idea?
Those who don't want to die are valueless lies; and those who don't mind death are valuable assets.
Maia
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Maia »

Naughtorious wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Why is it a better idea?
Because far fewer people get killed.
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